Marspedia - User contributions [en]

User talk:Farred

2014-01-08T19:09:04Z

Farred: I answered your message at my talk page on Lunarpedia.

Welcome to the flip side. :D - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 22:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:Happy to be here. Thanks. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
::I want to get a link to Mike Combs' space settlement FAQ to work, so I will try it here.
::Well, I tried it. It did not work. I removed it. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 04:56, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
How about that one: [http://space.mike-combs.com/spacsetl.htm#moon_mining Space settlement - What is there to mine on the moon?]? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 19:29, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
:I tried the new link put in by Spriditis. It works fine. It seems to me that links have a tendency to go bad with time. I think the link that I put in worked when I wrote it. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:20, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
::I used wiki tags [http://url_path url_title] - <nowiki>[http://url_path url_title]</nowiki>, You used just url.. maybe that was the case. -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 15:01, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
:::Thanks --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

== SPAM ==
Hi! I help [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] on Lunarpedia, and we've developed some tools and methods to help us deal with spam.

One thing that we do is set the "reason" for deleting a spam page to just "spam." If the original text of the spam remains in any form, it's possible that the spammer will get paid for it and come back and bring his spammer buds along.

I believe Strangelv has installed his WHUMP tool here, which will auto-delete spam on new pages and block the creator. We'll be tweaking the lists of words, since WHUMP was originally created for lpedia, a political wiki, but I'm sure it will help us keep the spam under control here. Please do tell us common "spam indicator" words that you see in the spam you delete.

[[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 16:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:I am happy to see anyone fight the spammers. When I delete a spam page there is automatically a string of text that shows up in the recent changes as the first few bytes of text as part of the reason for deleting the page. This string is only in recent changes and is only available as long as the recent changes is available. Do you want me to erase this string too? I do not delete according to a particular set of words. I check if the posting has a link advertising something that is not Mars or if the text advertises something that is not Mars. In a few of the cases a connection to Mars could have been made if the user had any interest in Mars, but since the user is just a computer program, there is no effort to refer to colonizing Mars. The post is spam and it's history. If I do notice good spam indicator words, I'll let you know. Thanks for being part of the good effort. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

::I wonder how many legitimate articles are uncategorized -- on LPedia (not connected to Marspedia, Lunarpedia et al. -- it's a political party wiki) that's been the most reliable source for identifying garbage articles as Brian Holtz categorized the last remaining uncategorized pages in the main namespace. Let me wake up enough to start collecting lists of articles to delete and feed into WHUMP. Ideally I'd like to delete the party that posted them originally, but I may chicken out and just have it delete the articles. As WHUMP is flagged as a bot, its activities are hidden by default. Click on 'Show Bots' on Recent Changes to see if it's done anything recently. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 22:14, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:::Done; just a blanket delete with no effort to hunt down and ban the original author -- after al[l, at least one of those might have started legitimately. Moving on to uncategorized pages. The situation here is a lot less bad than I'd assumed from the plea for help. Well, except for the classified as an attack page bit.

:::I'm having trouble getting WHUMP's actions to show up in RecentChanges even with Show Bots selected though. Wait, going back to default and then pressing show bots it works. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 22:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:::Have we run out of targets on Marspedia already? It may be time to move on to Exodictionary -- it's been getting slowly pummeled for awhile, although it may not be a large percentage as it has more articles than the rest of our wikis put together -- at least until I get Autostub1 working and crank out about 10,000 articles for Lunarpedia... -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 00:23, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
::::Congratulations, Strangelv, on getting WHUMP to work. I count 122 title only articles deleted. I did not hear about Marspedia being described as having an attack page. What is the trouble with an attack page? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 09:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

There are two sorts of SPAM: 
1. Manually inserted text, which seems not so frequent. 
2. New user accounts, obviously created by bot. Also, some exchange of whole paragraphs, probably carried out by bot. So, we need a better ''captcha'' to block the bots. Are you in contact with Dana Carson or Mike Delaney, who should be authorized to modify the wikimedia software? Strangelv may be in close contact with them. See also [[User talk:rfc#captcha code]]. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
:Well, I have been in contact with James Gholston and some others about the spam situation. I think people are doing as much as seems reasonable with captcha and automated spam removal. The spammers just seem to have some way of getting around the captcha with little effort. It may involve a work at home scam by which they con numerous poor people into doing their spamming. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

== [http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?client=tmpg&hl=ru&langpair=ru|en&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&u=http://inocont.net/&usg=ALkJrhi0tZ8DczDS3kY5_KeoktduNAaPFw InoCont] ==

Dear Farred! Thank you for your participation in the development of [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept|the concept of "InoCont"]] and the editorial work you are doing in this area.

As you know, the international scientific and creative program "Another Contin(g)ent» (www.inocont.net) is developing nearly 4 years, and our aims are to unite creative people of all countries to search for a vector of future discoveries and achievements in all spheres of activity both in space and on Earth. This is - a call for co-organizing an international experiment in the creation and testing of complex models of life and infrastructure of autonomous planetary settlements (APS).

Extended abstract concepts in the English language is available on the Marspedia (http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Another_Contin%28g%29ent_Concept ).

Most likely, you will see that our initiative is still evolving without external funding, receives no government support and investment, and relies solely on personal savings and the enthusiasm of volunteers.

We all believe that in an increasingly globalizing world, experiential understanding of the phenomenon of autonomy is necessary for regeneration of new socially significant meanings. This will not only introduce new ideas to solve the problem of initial survival, but also will open up innovative approaches in the development.

The "InoСont" Program relies on the principle of "from the complex – to a simple", which means the union of all the inhabitants of Earth in search of solutions for large-scale social settlements on the Moon, Mars and other objects in the solar system. It is able to rethink the problems of life on Earth and to strengthen the fundamental-project basis for innovative development.

For this paradoxal purpose we develop a unique methodology for forecasting design (FutureDesign) of socio-technological imperatives of development, which will focus on intermediate contests. The first one is planned under the title "UniCont" under the "Cultural Universiade-2013" during the XXVII Summer World Student Games in Kazan, Russia.

We believe that the development of the niche free competition will be extremely attractive to investors today. The Program provides competitive to attract investments for the implementation of the startups.

Development of information and the methodological basis of the experiment will focus on network semantic design, business-project games, musical improvization, simulations in virtual worlds and the creation of full-scale APS’ prototype architectural and engineering controls, etc. The achievement of high-level design specifications (and this is - more than half of the success of any innovation) will contribute to broad interdisciplinary projects and their testing in difficult climatic conditions of the Arctic, underwater, underground and other extreme environments.

Example of APS can become a good practice, working on a team project based on your scientific and cultural interests: that is suitable for extreme conditions, will be effective for milder conditions of the Earth.

All this requires special support from society and business, liders of culture, high-quality new partners.

Please help the program "InoСont" by your tremendous experience and recommendations, well-aimed advice to colleagues and students.

I would be happy personal acquaintance with you and fruitful cooperation.

I wish you good health and all good things of life

''Nazym F. Sayfullin, Chairman of the "Planetonautics" Section, Moscow Society of Naturalists (founded in 1805)''

Welcome to Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/groups/inocont/

--[[User:PPark|PPark]] 10:09, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
:To Nazym F. Sayfullin:
::My efforts with the <nowiki>[[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]] article were not undertaken on behalf of InoCont. It is my duty and my privilege as a guest administrator on Marspedia too serve the interest of Marspedia, which is the interest of THE MARS SOCIETY. I see no evidence that InoCont is a legal person capable of owning copyrights. I see no indication that Inocont is anything more than the creation of Nazym F. Sayfullin or PPark. The quality of the material posted by PPark does not suggest scholarly effort. It seems that the intent of Marspedia has been to give contributors a chance to bring their work up to a quality that reflects well upon Marspedia. So I have been trying to improve [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]]</nowiki> in hope that you get the idea that unfamiliarity with the English language is not an excuse for posting extensive amounts rambling disjointed prose on Marspedia. Claims of official positions with societies do not merit any special consideration on Marspedia unless they can be substantiated by officials of THE MARS SOCIETY. So far I have not had any indication that THE MARS SOCIETY has any interest in promoting InoCont or its program. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:43, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

==Contribution copyright status==
You've made contributions to Marspedia between 1 January and 20 June 2012, a period where there is a problem with the rules for the main namespace, specifically [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]], [[Coronal Mass Ejections]], and [[Foundation of an Autonomous Colony]]. Do you officially allow your contributions to be released to the public domain? ...And by any chance are you the one who contributed anonymously to [[Autonomous planetary settlement]] from 174.31.99.237? Otherwise we may need to revert those helpful edits.-- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 02:17, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
:I officially allow my contributions to Marspedia to be released to public domain. It seems likely that the contribution from 174.31.99.237 was mine also, but I have no control over the IP addresses that are assigned to me, and I have kept no record. I just reverted that contribution and replaced it with one listed to my Marspedia name. I hope this is helpful. I can make further clean-up edits to <nowiki>[[Autonomous planetary settlement]]</nowiki> if I find the time. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:47, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

==To do==
The edit by user:123.115.107.183 on the 16th of July to the Talk:Discussion page related Cnc (computer numerical control) machining to considerations for Earthly use, but CNC machining would be a good compliment to forging on Mars too. It is possible that this IP address editor was making a good faith effort to contribute to the discussion of Mars colonization, but the edit was not in the proper place to be appreciated. I hope to add something about CNC machining when I can do it well and in the proper place. It is somewhat related to [[Colonization strategy]]. I have got [[Talk:Teraforming]] and other things to consider. Too much to do. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:38, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:Something Rose and I noticed a month or so ago was that some of the article-damaging attacks were using an AI that made text that read very much like it was on topic. The only way it was unambigous that it wasn't an attempt at a legitimate contribution was because it was deleting pre-existing content a section at a time, consistent with a common attack strategy.

:Fortunately, the main attackers singling out Marspedia are running low on non-blocked IP addresses. At least the ones who aren't creating garbage accounts and little else...

:--[[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 01:47, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

fix <nowiki>[[Outgassing]] definition; review [[Economic Systems and their Relation to a Mars Colony]]</nowiki> - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 01:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

==Deletion reasons:==
*unused file form unknown source with unknown copyright status

*unused non-English file with unknown copyright status
- [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

==Technical Difficulties==
What exactly goes wrong when you edit and what do I need to do to duplicate the problem on my end? -- [[Special:Contributions/173.74.208.113|173.74.208.113]] 06:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I suppose messaging might work better if I'd remember to log in first, which reminds me of another problem I've been baffled by: why WHUMP is no longer able to log into here. I get this error message:

the high score is 670
Starting check for site http://marspedia.org
Logging In
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/[SNIP path]/WHUMP_M814_1247_marsp.py", line 192, in <module>
BR.select_form(name="userlogin")
File "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/mechanize/_mechanize.py", line 530, in select_form
raise FormNotFoundError("no form matching "+description)
mechanize._mechanize.FormNotFoundError: no form matching name 'userlogin'

...And I've been unable to figure out why. It was working before and only breaks for this wiki out of the five I'm presently running or trying to run [[User:WHUMP|WHUMP]] on.

Okay, I just hit preview and fot a page full of hyperlinks that are definitely not wanted. The background graphics were intact, and I belivee the text was over the graphics. Is this the problem you're running into? I'm still not sure how it could be caused. ...unless this is something in addition to what you're running into and it's happened since the last time I looked...

Interestingly, Firefox's built in spell checker isn't working right now as I type this.

There it goes again. First the links, then the template, and the links are under the graphics and a few DIVs that are part of the template.

hmm.

-- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 06:17, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

WHUMP's last ban here was 7 August, which may correspond to the problem unless it corresponds to my disk trouble that took my workstation offline for 2-3 weeks (doesn't look like it). When did the page full of garge links problem start? -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 06:36, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I've replaced the main directory's non-data php files with a set copied from exodictionary and am attempting to reproduce the problem. I'm not succeeding. Maybe this has been going on longer than I suspected?

Bonus: WHUMP is now able to log in again! -- so if the problem has been around since at least May (going by the date stamps on the files before I overwrote them, which is the date the attack I knew about was removed), why did it not become a problem for WHUMP until August? -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 07:01, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
:From your message it seems that you have found the problem that I mentioned on your talk page at Lunarpedia on the 17th of August. The symptoms you describe are consistent with what I see, but I do not notice the problems with WHUMP or Firefox because I do not run these programs. A possibility that I can guess at for staged symptoms is that at one point an attacker got access to the system and later by using that access found a place to make alterations that caused present symptoms. That is as close as I can come to being helpful. I no nothing in particular about programming wikis or setting them up. Good luck. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 10:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
::I hope the problem is fixed now. I did not see the spam links filling the screen when I edited my talk page last. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 10:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
:::On the Recent Changes page click on the Show Bots link to see what WHUMP has been up to lately. 8) -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 11:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
::::Good work! - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:20, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

==whoops==
Yes, I agree that anonymous people should not be allowed to crap up Marspedia. If we force them to create an account, that discourages a lot of spam right there. If they actually create an account and log in, it's far easier to get rid of all their crap; JamesG has a script to help mechanize spam removal. [[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 20:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

==more SPAM==
Yes, I agree that anonymous people should not be allowed to crap up Marspedia. If we force them to create an account, that discourages a lot of spam right there. If they actually create an account and log in, it's far easier to get rid of all their crap; JamesG has a script to help mechanize spam removal. [[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 19:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

:I have to disagree: the anonymous attacks expose their IP addresses and we can deal with them for however long we need to (180 days almost always works): they run out of IP addresses and can't attack anymore until they get new ones -- and then those get banned for 180 days too. When they create accounts they're protected: they can create new accounts continuously, and the longest the IP gets blocked is 24 hours. Give me anonymous IP attacks any day. It's the account-creating attacks that are a problem. If we want to get desperate, blocking account creation would go a lot further towards bringing the situation under control. The [[User:WHUMP|WHUMP]] script is running as I type and has been for quite awhile. I haven't thought of an algorithm for detecting damaging attacks to existing articles (so WHEMP automatically ignores such attacks), but I believe the Bad Behavior extension can help deal with those if we install it. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 20:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

::I replied on Miros1's talk page before seeing Strangelv's comment too. As to blocking IP addresses, I am not sure it does any good. I have checked for deleted contributions from IPs when removing their SPAM and only a couple of times have I found any. In those cases I blocked the IP. It may be that there is some other way of spoofing the system to give multiple IP addresses to one user than using a bot-net; or there may be so many zombie addresses available that the spammer never needs to use one twice. I am certain that I have never seen an over 180 day old deleted contribution listed to an IP. I will mention here too that I suspect a virus in my e-mail account. So I will try not to pass it along as we do what we can. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
::Now I see that undone contributions do not show up as deleted contributions on Marspedia like they do on Wikipedia. That makes things different than I suspected. I will start blocking IP address spammers more. Changing deleted contributions to include undone contributions might be more trouble than it is worth. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

==Featured article==
How do you think about [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk%3AMain_Page&diff=7767&oldid=7489 this proposal]? Problem is, I do not have permission to do it myself. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:50, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
:Whatever article you think would be good as a featured article is likely to be an improvement over leaving the same featured article for years. I have no experience in changing featured articles. I was just given administrator powers when there was a rash of vandalism to the wiki so I could help with that, but I have little technical knowledge about how a wiki is managed. People who disagree with your choice have every opportunity to voice there opinions. I have seen no objections to your proposal so far. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:01, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
All you need is to edit [[Template:Featured article]]. You may just copy parts of the selected article into there, and that is that. I have not the permission to do it, that is why I am asking you. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 21:07, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I have created a draft [[Template:Featured article draft|here]]. Could you please have a look and, may be after some enhancement or not, put it in [[Template:Featured article|there]] in order to make it appear on the main page? Thanks.

One more thing: Sorry for writing onto you user's page. I am going to move all the discussion stuff to your talk page, and I hope this is okay with you. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 14:50, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

:Thanks for moving the talk to my talk page. I was thinking I would get around to it sooner or later. I did see your edit on my user page and on <nowiki>[[Talk:Equipment for autonomous growth]]</nowiki> earlier but was still considering how to respond when I had the time. You have made it so easy for me now that I will first edit the featured article template and see what happens, second get back to autonomous growth later. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:34, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

==Sorry==
Note to self: never again edit Marspedia just because you think the medicine has worn off. I ''really'' messed that [[semimajor axis]] article up. Sorry. [[User:ChristiaanK|ChristiaanK]] 04:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

== user Rfc is blocked ==

Is blocking a proper mitigation for the massive bot attacks? We had better enhance the captcha, because our captcha works really poor. Obviously, the bots have no problem in dealing with our captcha. -- Rfc
:I recently finished 142 actions of blocking, deleting, and undoing the actions of spammers and vandals. I spent two hours and one minute doing that. I also unblocked Rfc. User:Strangelv, our local bureaucrat, changed the new account requirements at Lunarpedia to require requesting an account to get one. That helped. I suppose he could do the same for Marspedia. I will ask. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:07, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
::What was done to reduce spam at Lunarpedia does not seem appropriate for Marspedia. If Whump just keeps working as planned, it is not too much trouble. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
:Whump blocked you 22 minutes after you last recorded edit. I see nothing in that edit that should have attracted Whump's notice. Whump does not seem to have been doing it's standard job since then either. Perhaps it was altered. Something should be fixed. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! You are doing a great job here! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
== New User ==
Pete9804 has started making edits. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:24, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
:No edits since 2 October 2013. Perhaps I scared him away. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:37, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Watch user:FedericoSTMM aka Brandi.

== Motivation ==
See [[Motivation]] NASA reference, ''Why Mars?''. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:13, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

== agony ==

When I look at the Recent Changes with all the bot activities, I am getting the impression of a dying Marspedia. Why does nobody update the captcha functionality? Is it a matter of manpower? Is it a matter of money for a larger server space? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

==I answered your message at my talk page on Lunarpedia.==
- [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:09, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Automation

2013-12-02T11:22:38Z

Farred: addition

Future Martian settlers will have to live in an artificial environment, requiring a number of machines and processes to keep the [[habitat]] stable. Temperature and [[air]] composition must be controlled. '''Automation''' technology can help to free the settlers from doing it manually, allowing more productive work, such as the extension of the [[colony]]. Other possible tasks to be automated are the watering, fertilizing, and harvesting of greenhouse grown produce. People would monitor these functions, adjust the automatic settings or redo the automated setup occasionally as required to meet colony goals.

A number of technologies can be incorporated in automated functions:
*[[Pneumatics]]
*[[Hydraulics]]
*[[Electronics]]
*[[Artificial intelligence, automated industry and colonizing Mars|Artificial intelligence]]
{{stub}}
[[Category:Technology]]
[[Category:Settlements]]

Talk:Marspedia's popularity

2013-11-30T21:43:02Z

Farred: talk

Hi!

I drop links to pertinent articles whenever the concepts come up in discussion. I recommend you guys do that as well. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 04:10, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
:I am not very busy on other sites on the internet, but this is definitely true. However, it does not seem to help very much, and I do not believe this is the solution already. To attract contributers is one thing, to keep them here is another. I'm afraid, the latter is our problem. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 17:16, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

== The Quality of the Site ==
:I have looked over the questions and cannot suggest a particular failing. Colonizing Mars is hard work, and so is developing good copy describing the prospects. For me the problem has been budgeting time to make good contributions.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:25, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
::... which seems to fit ''" Are people too busy struggling their daily life?"'' best. Yeah, that is my problem too. And most people seem not to be interested in such a "weired" idea of colonizing Mars at all. And yet, the number of Mars Society members is constantly rising. Is it for them easy enough to pay a membership fee, but contributing is to hard? I am trying to think what keeps them away from Marspedia? And what can we do to encourage them? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:53, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
:Whenever I read the following on the front page, I often want to shake my head. These have crackpot written all over them:
:*No Need to be Notable
:*No Need to be Neutral
:*Commercial Links are OK - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 04:16, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I have added an appropriate question to the list. But what is so wrong about that? I think we can not be better than Wikipedia if we have exactly the same policies. There are quite a few people contributing to the Mars pages on Wikipedia, which is fine, of course. How should we attract those contributors away from Wikipedia? From my own experience I know there are another few people in conflict with Wikipedia's policies, mostly regarding the ''Notability'' thing. A whole lot of discouraged writers, whose contributions have been removed from Wikipedia's prim pages, commented with "not notable" or "original research". I wonder why we can not attract them to Marspedia. Do you really think the Marspedia policies keep potential contributors away? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 17:16, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

== Error creating thumbnail ==

Example: [[Charcoal]]. This occurs with every new image inserted. So, the pages look terrible. Does this influence Marspedia's popularity? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 12:26, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
:You have put some good graphic additions into articles. The lack of graphics because of a software defect should have an effect on popularity. How much of an negative effect occurs and how much of a positive effect is needed for the Mars Society's purpose I do not know. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:43, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

User talk:Farred

2013-11-27T14:33:19Z

Farred: watch new user

User talk:FedericoSTMM

2013-11-27T14:18:14Z

Farred: welcome

== Welcome ==
Hello Brandi,
:I see you are editing as FedericoSTMM. Names of editors and the places where they live are not so important as an interest in colonizing Mars. If you want to edit articles relating to Mars colonization you are in the right place. I hope you enjoy Marspedia. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 14:18, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

User talk:Farred

2013-11-24T07:37:58Z

Farred: /* New User */ talk

Welcome to the flip side. :D - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 22:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:Happy to be here. Thanks. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
::I want to get a link to Mike Combs' space settlement FAQ to work, so I will try it here.
::Well, I tried it. It did not work. I removed it. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 04:56, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
How about that one: [http://space.mike-combs.com/spacsetl.htm#moon_mining Space settlement - What is there to mine on the moon?]? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 19:29, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
:I tried the new link put in by Spriditis. It works fine. It seems to me that links have a tendency to go bad with time. I think the link that I put in worked when I wrote it. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:20, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
::I used wiki tags [http://url_path url_title] - <nowiki>[http://url_path url_title]</nowiki>, You used just url.. maybe that was the case. -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 15:01, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
:::Thanks --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

== SPAM ==
Hi! I help [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] on Lunarpedia, and we've developed some tools and methods to help us deal with spam.

One thing that we do is set the "reason" for deleting a spam page to just "spam." If the original text of the spam remains in any form, it's possible that the spammer will get paid for it and come back and bring his spammer buds along.

I believe Strangelv has installed his WHUMP tool here, which will auto-delete spam on new pages and block the creator. We'll be tweaking the lists of words, since WHUMP was originally created for lpedia, a political wiki, but I'm sure it will help us keep the spam under control here. Please do tell us common "spam indicator" words that you see in the spam you delete.

[[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 16:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:I am happy to see anyone fight the spammers. When I delete a spam page there is automatically a string of text that shows up in the recent changes as the first few bytes of text as part of the reason for deleting the page. This string is only in recent changes and is only available as long as the recent changes is available. Do you want me to erase this string too? I do not delete according to a particular set of words. I check if the posting has a link advertising something that is not Mars or if the text advertises something that is not Mars. In a few of the cases a connection to Mars could have been made if the user had any interest in Mars, but since the user is just a computer program, there is no effort to refer to colonizing Mars. The post is spam and it's history. If I do notice good spam indicator words, I'll let you know. Thanks for being part of the good effort. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

::I wonder how many legitimate articles are uncategorized -- on LPedia (not connected to Marspedia, Lunarpedia et al. -- it's a political party wiki) that's been the most reliable source for identifying garbage articles as Brian Holtz categorized the last remaining uncategorized pages in the main namespace. Let me wake up enough to start collecting lists of articles to delete and feed into WHUMP. Ideally I'd like to delete the party that posted them originally, but I may chicken out and just have it delete the articles. As WHUMP is flagged as a bot, its activities are hidden by default. Click on 'Show Bots' on Recent Changes to see if it's done anything recently. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 22:14, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:::Done; just a blanket delete with no effort to hunt down and ban the original author -- after al[l, at least one of those might have started legitimately. Moving on to uncategorized pages. The situation here is a lot less bad than I'd assumed from the plea for help. Well, except for the classified as an attack page bit.

:::I'm having trouble getting WHUMP's actions to show up in RecentChanges even with Show Bots selected though. Wait, going back to default and then pressing show bots it works. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 22:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:::Have we run out of targets on Marspedia already? It may be time to move on to Exodictionary -- it's been getting slowly pummeled for awhile, although it may not be a large percentage as it has more articles than the rest of our wikis put together -- at least until I get Autostub1 working and crank out about 10,000 articles for Lunarpedia... -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 00:23, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
::::Congratulations, Strangelv, on getting WHUMP to work. I count 122 title only articles deleted. I did not hear about Marspedia being described as having an attack page. What is the trouble with an attack page? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 09:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

There are two sorts of SPAM: 
1. Manually inserted text, which seems not so frequent. 
2. New user accounts, obviously created by bot. Also, some exchange of whole paragraphs, probably carried out by bot. So, we need a better ''captcha'' to block the bots. Are you in contact with Dana Carson or Mike Delaney, who should be authorized to modify the wikimedia software? Strangelv may be in close contact with them. See also [[User talk:rfc#captcha code]]. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
:Well, I have been in contact with James Gholston and some others about the spam situation. I think people are doing as much as seems reasonable with captcha and automated spam removal. The spammers just seem to have some way of getting around the captcha with little effort. It may involve a work at home scam by which they con numerous poor people into doing their spamming. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

== [http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?client=tmpg&hl=ru&langpair=ru|en&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&u=http://inocont.net/&usg=ALkJrhi0tZ8DczDS3kY5_KeoktduNAaPFw InoCont] ==

Dear Farred! Thank you for your participation in the development of [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept|the concept of "InoCont"]] and the editorial work you are doing in this area.

As you know, the international scientific and creative program "Another Contin(g)ent» (www.inocont.net) is developing nearly 4 years, and our aims are to unite creative people of all countries to search for a vector of future discoveries and achievements in all spheres of activity both in space and on Earth. This is - a call for co-organizing an international experiment in the creation and testing of complex models of life and infrastructure of autonomous planetary settlements (APS).

Extended abstract concepts in the English language is available on the Marspedia (http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Another_Contin%28g%29ent_Concept ).

Most likely, you will see that our initiative is still evolving without external funding, receives no government support and investment, and relies solely on personal savings and the enthusiasm of volunteers.

We all believe that in an increasingly globalizing world, experiential understanding of the phenomenon of autonomy is necessary for regeneration of new socially significant meanings. This will not only introduce new ideas to solve the problem of initial survival, but also will open up innovative approaches in the development.

The "InoСont" Program relies on the principle of "from the complex – to a simple", which means the union of all the inhabitants of Earth in search of solutions for large-scale social settlements on the Moon, Mars and other objects in the solar system. It is able to rethink the problems of life on Earth and to strengthen the fundamental-project basis for innovative development.

For this paradoxal purpose we develop a unique methodology for forecasting design (FutureDesign) of socio-technological imperatives of development, which will focus on intermediate contests. The first one is planned under the title "UniCont" under the "Cultural Universiade-2013" during the XXVII Summer World Student Games in Kazan, Russia.

We believe that the development of the niche free competition will be extremely attractive to investors today. The Program provides competitive to attract investments for the implementation of the startups.

Development of information and the methodological basis of the experiment will focus on network semantic design, business-project games, musical improvization, simulations in virtual worlds and the creation of full-scale APS’ prototype architectural and engineering controls, etc. The achievement of high-level design specifications (and this is - more than half of the success of any innovation) will contribute to broad interdisciplinary projects and their testing in difficult climatic conditions of the Arctic, underwater, underground and other extreme environments.

Example of APS can become a good practice, working on a team project based on your scientific and cultural interests: that is suitable for extreme conditions, will be effective for milder conditions of the Earth.

All this requires special support from society and business, liders of culture, high-quality new partners.

Please help the program "InoСont" by your tremendous experience and recommendations, well-aimed advice to colleagues and students.

I would be happy personal acquaintance with you and fruitful cooperation.

I wish you good health and all good things of life

''Nazym F. Sayfullin, Chairman of the "Planetonautics" Section, Moscow Society of Naturalists (founded in 1805)''

Welcome to Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/groups/inocont/

--[[User:PPark|PPark]] 10:09, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
:To Nazym F. Sayfullin:
::My efforts with the <nowiki>[[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]] article were not undertaken on behalf of InoCont. It is my duty and my privilege as a guest administrator on Marspedia too serve the interest of Marspedia, which is the interest of THE MARS SOCIETY. I see no evidence that InoCont is a legal person capable of owning copyrights. I see no indication that Inocont is anything more than the creation of Nazym F. Sayfullin or PPark. The quality of the material posted by PPark does not suggest scholarly effort. It seems that the intent of Marspedia has been to give contributors a chance to bring their work up to a quality that reflects well upon Marspedia. So I have been trying to improve [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]]</nowiki> in hope that you get the idea that unfamiliarity with the English language is not an excuse for posting extensive amounts rambling disjointed prose on Marspedia. Claims of official positions with societies do not merit any special consideration on Marspedia unless they can be substantiated by officials of THE MARS SOCIETY. So far I have not had any indication that THE MARS SOCIETY has any interest in promoting InoCont or its program. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:43, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

==Contribution copyright status==
You've made contributions to Marspedia between 1 January and 20 June 2012, a period where there is a problem with the rules for the main namespace, specifically [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]], [[Coronal Mass Ejections]], and [[Foundation of an Autonomous Colony]]. Do you officially allow your contributions to be released to the public domain? ...And by any chance are you the one who contributed anonymously to [[Autonomous planetary settlement]] from 174.31.99.237? Otherwise we may need to revert those helpful edits.-- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 02:17, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
:I officially allow my contributions to Marspedia to be released to public domain. It seems likely that the contribution from 174.31.99.237 was mine also, but I have no control over the IP addresses that are assigned to me, and I have kept no record. I just reverted that contribution and replaced it with one listed to my Marspedia name. I hope this is helpful. I can make further clean-up edits to <nowiki>[[Autonomous planetary settlement]]</nowiki> if I find the time. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:47, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

==To do==
The edit by user:123.115.107.183 on the 16th of July to the Talk:Discussion page related Cnc (computer numerical control) machining to considerations for Earthly use, but CNC machining would be a good compliment to forging on Mars too. It is possible that this IP address editor was making a good faith effort to contribute to the discussion of Mars colonization, but the edit was not in the proper place to be appreciated. I hope to add something about CNC machining when I can do it well and in the proper place. It is somewhat related to [[Colonization strategy]]. I have got [[Talk:Teraforming]] and other things to consider. Too much to do. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:38, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:Something Rose and I noticed a month or so ago was that some of the article-damaging attacks were using an AI that made text that read very much like it was on topic. The only way it was unambigous that it wasn't an attempt at a legitimate contribution was because it was deleting pre-existing content a section at a time, consistent with a common attack strategy.

:Fortunately, the main attackers singling out Marspedia are running low on non-blocked IP addresses. At least the ones who aren't creating garbage accounts and little else...

:--[[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 01:47, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

fix <nowiki>[[Outgassing]] definition; review [[Economic Systems and their Relation to a Mars Colony]]</nowiki> - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 01:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

==Deletion reasons:==
*unused file form unknown source with unknown copyright status

*unused non-English file with unknown copyright status
- [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

==Technical Difficulties==
What exactly goes wrong when you edit and what do I need to do to duplicate the problem on my end? -- [[Special:Contributions/173.74.208.113|173.74.208.113]] 06:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I suppose messaging might work better if I'd remember to log in first, which reminds me of another problem I've been baffled by: why WHUMP is no longer able to log into here. I get this error message:

the high score is 670
Starting check for site http://marspedia.org
Logging In
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/[SNIP path]/WHUMP_M814_1247_marsp.py", line 192, in <module>
BR.select_form(name="userlogin")
File "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/mechanize/_mechanize.py", line 530, in select_form
raise FormNotFoundError("no form matching "+description)
mechanize._mechanize.FormNotFoundError: no form matching name 'userlogin'

...And I've been unable to figure out why. It was working before and only breaks for this wiki out of the five I'm presently running or trying to run [[User:WHUMP|WHUMP]] on.

Okay, I just hit preview and fot a page full of hyperlinks that are definitely not wanted. The background graphics were intact, and I belivee the text was over the graphics. Is this the problem you're running into? I'm still not sure how it could be caused. ...unless this is something in addition to what you're running into and it's happened since the last time I looked...

Interestingly, Firefox's built in spell checker isn't working right now as I type this.

There it goes again. First the links, then the template, and the links are under the graphics and a few DIVs that are part of the template.

hmm.

-- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 06:17, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

WHUMP's last ban here was 7 August, which may correspond to the problem unless it corresponds to my disk trouble that took my workstation offline for 2-3 weeks (doesn't look like it). When did the page full of garge links problem start? -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 06:36, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I've replaced the main directory's non-data php files with a set copied from exodictionary and am attempting to reproduce the problem. I'm not succeeding. Maybe this has been going on longer than I suspected?

Bonus: WHUMP is now able to log in again! -- so if the problem has been around since at least May (going by the date stamps on the files before I overwrote them, which is the date the attack I knew about was removed), why did it not become a problem for WHUMP until August? -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 07:01, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
:From your message it seems that you have found the problem that I mentioned on your talk page at Lunarpedia on the 17th of August. The symptoms you describe are consistent with what I see, but I do not notice the problems with WHUMP or Firefox because I do not run these programs. A possibility that I can guess at for staged symptoms is that at one point an attacker got access to the system and later by using that access found a place to make alterations that caused present symptoms. That is as close as I can come to being helpful. I no nothing in particular about programming wikis or setting them up. Good luck. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 10:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
::I hope the problem is fixed now. I did not see the spam links filling the screen when I edited my talk page last. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 10:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
:::On the Recent Changes page click on the Show Bots link to see what WHUMP has been up to lately. 8) -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 11:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
::::Good work! - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:20, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

==whoops==
Yes, I agree that anonymous people should not be allowed to crap up Marspedia. If we force them to create an account, that discourages a lot of spam right there. If they actually create an account and log in, it's far easier to get rid of all their crap; JamesG has a script to help mechanize spam removal. [[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 20:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

==more SPAM==
Yes, I agree that anonymous people should not be allowed to crap up Marspedia. If we force them to create an account, that discourages a lot of spam right there. If they actually create an account and log in, it's far easier to get rid of all their crap; JamesG has a script to help mechanize spam removal. [[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 19:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

:I have to disagree: the anonymous attacks expose their IP addresses and we can deal with them for however long we need to (180 days almost always works): they run out of IP addresses and can't attack anymore until they get new ones -- and then those get banned for 180 days too. When they create accounts they're protected: they can create new accounts continuously, and the longest the IP gets blocked is 24 hours. Give me anonymous IP attacks any day. It's the account-creating attacks that are a problem. If we want to get desperate, blocking account creation would go a lot further towards bringing the situation under control. The [[User:WHUMP|WHUMP]] script is running as I type and has been for quite awhile. I haven't thought of an algorithm for detecting damaging attacks to existing articles (so WHEMP automatically ignores such attacks), but I believe the Bad Behavior extension can help deal with those if we install it. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 20:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

::I replied on Miros1's talk page before seeing Strangelv's comment too. As to blocking IP addresses, I am not sure it does any good. I have checked for deleted contributions from IPs when removing their SPAM and only a couple of times have I found any. In those cases I blocked the IP. It may be that there is some other way of spoofing the system to give multiple IP addresses to one user than using a bot-net; or there may be so many zombie addresses available that the spammer never needs to use one twice. I am certain that I have never seen an over 180 day old deleted contribution listed to an IP. I will mention here too that I suspect a virus in my e-mail account. So I will try not to pass it along as we do what we can. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
::Now I see that undone contributions do not show up as deleted contributions on Marspedia like they do on Wikipedia. That makes things different than I suspected. I will start blocking IP address spammers more. Changing deleted contributions to include undone contributions might be more trouble than it is worth. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

==Featured article==
How do you think about [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk%3AMain_Page&diff=7767&oldid=7489 this proposal]? Problem is, I do not have permission to do it myself. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:50, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
:Whatever article you think would be good as a featured article is likely to be an improvement over leaving the same featured article for years. I have no experience in changing featured articles. I was just given administrator powers when there was a rash of vandalism to the wiki so I could help with that, but I have little technical knowledge about how a wiki is managed. People who disagree with your choice have every opportunity to voice there opinions. I have seen no objections to your proposal so far. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:01, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
All you need is to edit [[Template:Featured article]]. You may just copy parts of the selected article into there, and that is that. I have not the permission to do it, that is why I am asking you. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 21:07, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I have created a draft [[Template:Featured article draft|here]]. Could you please have a look and, may be after some enhancement or not, put it in [[Template:Featured article|there]] in order to make it appear on the main page? Thanks.

One more thing: Sorry for writing onto you user's page. I am going to move all the discussion stuff to your talk page, and I hope this is okay with you. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 14:50, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

:Thanks for moving the talk to my talk page. I was thinking I would get around to it sooner or later. I did see your edit on my user page and on <nowiki>[[Talk:Equipment for autonomous growth]]</nowiki> earlier but was still considering how to respond when I had the time. You have made it so easy for me now that I will first edit the featured article template and see what happens, second get back to autonomous growth later. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:34, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

==Sorry==
Note to self: never again edit Marspedia just because you think the medicine has worn off. I ''really'' messed that [[semimajor axis]] article up. Sorry. [[User:ChristiaanK|ChristiaanK]] 04:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

== user Rfc is blocked ==

Is blocking a proper mitigation for the massive bot attacks? We had better enhance the captcha, because our captcha works really poor. Obviously, the bots have no problem in dealing with our captcha. -- Rfc
:I recently finished 142 actions of blocking, deleting, and undoing the actions of spammers and vandals. I spent two hours and one minute doing that. I also unblocked Rfc. User:Strangelv, our local bureaucrat, changed the new account requirements at Lunarpedia to require requesting an account to get one. That helped. I suppose he could do the same for Marspedia. I will ask. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:07, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
::What was done to reduce spam at Lunarpedia does not seem appropriate for Marspedia. If Whump just keeps working as planned, it is not too much trouble. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
:Whump blocked you 22 minutes after you last recorded edit. I see nothing in that edit that should have attracted Whump's notice. Whump does not seem to have been doing it's standard job since then either. Perhaps it was altered. Something should be fixed. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! You are doing a great job here! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
== New User ==
Pete9804 has started making edits. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:24, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
:No edits since 2 October 2013. Perhaps I scared him away. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:37, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

== Motivation ==
See [[Motivation]] NASA reference, ''Why Mars?''. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:13, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

User talk:Farred

2013-11-23T00:13:29Z

Farred: Motivation

Welcome to the flip side. :D - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 22:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:Happy to be here. Thanks. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
::I want to get a link to Mike Combs' space settlement FAQ to work, so I will try it here.
::Well, I tried it. It did not work. I removed it. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 04:56, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
How about that one: [http://space.mike-combs.com/spacsetl.htm#moon_mining Space settlement - What is there to mine on the moon?]? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 19:29, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
:I tried the new link put in by Spriditis. It works fine. It seems to me that links have a tendency to go bad with time. I think the link that I put in worked when I wrote it. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:20, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
::I used wiki tags [http://url_path url_title] - <nowiki>[http://url_path url_title]</nowiki>, You used just url.. maybe that was the case. -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 15:01, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
:::Thanks --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

== SPAM ==
Hi! I help [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] on Lunarpedia, and we've developed some tools and methods to help us deal with spam.

One thing that we do is set the "reason" for deleting a spam page to just "spam." If the original text of the spam remains in any form, it's possible that the spammer will get paid for it and come back and bring his spammer buds along.

I believe Strangelv has installed his WHUMP tool here, which will auto-delete spam on new pages and block the creator. We'll be tweaking the lists of words, since WHUMP was originally created for lpedia, a political wiki, but I'm sure it will help us keep the spam under control here. Please do tell us common "spam indicator" words that you see in the spam you delete.

[[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 16:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:I am happy to see anyone fight the spammers. When I delete a spam page there is automatically a string of text that shows up in the recent changes as the first few bytes of text as part of the reason for deleting the page. This string is only in recent changes and is only available as long as the recent changes is available. Do you want me to erase this string too? I do not delete according to a particular set of words. I check if the posting has a link advertising something that is not Mars or if the text advertises something that is not Mars. In a few of the cases a connection to Mars could have been made if the user had any interest in Mars, but since the user is just a computer program, there is no effort to refer to colonizing Mars. The post is spam and it's history. If I do notice good spam indicator words, I'll let you know. Thanks for being part of the good effort. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

::I wonder how many legitimate articles are uncategorized -- on LPedia (not connected to Marspedia, Lunarpedia et al. -- it's a political party wiki) that's been the most reliable source for identifying garbage articles as Brian Holtz categorized the last remaining uncategorized pages in the main namespace. Let me wake up enough to start collecting lists of articles to delete and feed into WHUMP. Ideally I'd like to delete the party that posted them originally, but I may chicken out and just have it delete the articles. As WHUMP is flagged as a bot, its activities are hidden by default. Click on 'Show Bots' on Recent Changes to see if it's done anything recently. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 22:14, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:::Done; just a blanket delete with no effort to hunt down and ban the original author -- after al[l, at least one of those might have started legitimately. Moving on to uncategorized pages. The situation here is a lot less bad than I'd assumed from the plea for help. Well, except for the classified as an attack page bit.

:::I'm having trouble getting WHUMP's actions to show up in RecentChanges even with Show Bots selected though. Wait, going back to default and then pressing show bots it works. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 22:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:::Have we run out of targets on Marspedia already? It may be time to move on to Exodictionary -- it's been getting slowly pummeled for awhile, although it may not be a large percentage as it has more articles than the rest of our wikis put together -- at least until I get Autostub1 working and crank out about 10,000 articles for Lunarpedia... -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 00:23, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
::::Congratulations, Strangelv, on getting WHUMP to work. I count 122 title only articles deleted. I did not hear about Marspedia being described as having an attack page. What is the trouble with an attack page? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 09:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

There are two sorts of SPAM: 
1. Manually inserted text, which seems not so frequent. 
2. New user accounts, obviously created by bot. Also, some exchange of whole paragraphs, probably carried out by bot. So, we need a better ''captcha'' to block the bots. Are you in contact with Dana Carson or Mike Delaney, who should be authorized to modify the wikimedia software? Strangelv may be in close contact with them. See also [[User talk:rfc#captcha code]]. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
:Well, I have been in contact with James Gholston and some others about the spam situation. I think people are doing as much as seems reasonable with captcha and automated spam removal. The spammers just seem to have some way of getting around the captcha with little effort. It may involve a work at home scam by which they con numerous poor people into doing their spamming. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

== [http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?client=tmpg&hl=ru&langpair=ru|en&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&u=http://inocont.net/&usg=ALkJrhi0tZ8DczDS3kY5_KeoktduNAaPFw InoCont] ==

Dear Farred! Thank you for your participation in the development of [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept|the concept of "InoCont"]] and the editorial work you are doing in this area.

As you know, the international scientific and creative program "Another Contin(g)ent» (www.inocont.net) is developing nearly 4 years, and our aims are to unite creative people of all countries to search for a vector of future discoveries and achievements in all spheres of activity both in space and on Earth. This is - a call for co-organizing an international experiment in the creation and testing of complex models of life and infrastructure of autonomous planetary settlements (APS).

Extended abstract concepts in the English language is available on the Marspedia (http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Another_Contin%28g%29ent_Concept ).

Most likely, you will see that our initiative is still evolving without external funding, receives no government support and investment, and relies solely on personal savings and the enthusiasm of volunteers.

We all believe that in an increasingly globalizing world, experiential understanding of the phenomenon of autonomy is necessary for regeneration of new socially significant meanings. This will not only introduce new ideas to solve the problem of initial survival, but also will open up innovative approaches in the development.

The "InoСont" Program relies on the principle of "from the complex – to a simple", which means the union of all the inhabitants of Earth in search of solutions for large-scale social settlements on the Moon, Mars and other objects in the solar system. It is able to rethink the problems of life on Earth and to strengthen the fundamental-project basis for innovative development.

For this paradoxal purpose we develop a unique methodology for forecasting design (FutureDesign) of socio-technological imperatives of development, which will focus on intermediate contests. The first one is planned under the title "UniCont" under the "Cultural Universiade-2013" during the XXVII Summer World Student Games in Kazan, Russia.

We believe that the development of the niche free competition will be extremely attractive to investors today. The Program provides competitive to attract investments for the implementation of the startups.

Development of information and the methodological basis of the experiment will focus on network semantic design, business-project games, musical improvization, simulations in virtual worlds and the creation of full-scale APS’ prototype architectural and engineering controls, etc. The achievement of high-level design specifications (and this is - more than half of the success of any innovation) will contribute to broad interdisciplinary projects and their testing in difficult climatic conditions of the Arctic, underwater, underground and other extreme environments.

Example of APS can become a good practice, working on a team project based on your scientific and cultural interests: that is suitable for extreme conditions, will be effective for milder conditions of the Earth.

All this requires special support from society and business, liders of culture, high-quality new partners.

Please help the program "InoСont" by your tremendous experience and recommendations, well-aimed advice to colleagues and students.

I would be happy personal acquaintance with you and fruitful cooperation.

I wish you good health and all good things of life

''Nazym F. Sayfullin, Chairman of the "Planetonautics" Section, Moscow Society of Naturalists (founded in 1805)''

Welcome to Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/groups/inocont/

--[[User:PPark|PPark]] 10:09, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
:To Nazym F. Sayfullin:
::My efforts with the <nowiki>[[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]] article were not undertaken on behalf of InoCont. It is my duty and my privilege as a guest administrator on Marspedia too serve the interest of Marspedia, which is the interest of THE MARS SOCIETY. I see no evidence that InoCont is a legal person capable of owning copyrights. I see no indication that Inocont is anything more than the creation of Nazym F. Sayfullin or PPark. The quality of the material posted by PPark does not suggest scholarly effort. It seems that the intent of Marspedia has been to give contributors a chance to bring their work up to a quality that reflects well upon Marspedia. So I have been trying to improve [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]]</nowiki> in hope that you get the idea that unfamiliarity with the English language is not an excuse for posting extensive amounts rambling disjointed prose on Marspedia. Claims of official positions with societies do not merit any special consideration on Marspedia unless they can be substantiated by officials of THE MARS SOCIETY. So far I have not had any indication that THE MARS SOCIETY has any interest in promoting InoCont or its program. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:43, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

==Contribution copyright status==
You've made contributions to Marspedia between 1 January and 20 June 2012, a period where there is a problem with the rules for the main namespace, specifically [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]], [[Coronal Mass Ejections]], and [[Foundation of an Autonomous Colony]]. Do you officially allow your contributions to be released to the public domain? ...And by any chance are you the one who contributed anonymously to [[Autonomous planetary settlement]] from 174.31.99.237? Otherwise we may need to revert those helpful edits.-- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 02:17, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
:I officially allow my contributions to Marspedia to be released to public domain. It seems likely that the contribution from 174.31.99.237 was mine also, but I have no control over the IP addresses that are assigned to me, and I have kept no record. I just reverted that contribution and replaced it with one listed to my Marspedia name. I hope this is helpful. I can make further clean-up edits to <nowiki>[[Autonomous planetary settlement]]</nowiki> if I find the time. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:47, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

==To do==
The edit by user:123.115.107.183 on the 16th of July to the Talk:Discussion page related Cnc (computer numerical control) machining to considerations for Earthly use, but CNC machining would be a good compliment to forging on Mars too. It is possible that this IP address editor was making a good faith effort to contribute to the discussion of Mars colonization, but the edit was not in the proper place to be appreciated. I hope to add something about CNC machining when I can do it well and in the proper place. It is somewhat related to [[Colonization strategy]]. I have got [[Talk:Teraforming]] and other things to consider. Too much to do. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:38, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:Something Rose and I noticed a month or so ago was that some of the article-damaging attacks were using an AI that made text that read very much like it was on topic. The only way it was unambigous that it wasn't an attempt at a legitimate contribution was because it was deleting pre-existing content a section at a time, consistent with a common attack strategy.

:Fortunately, the main attackers singling out Marspedia are running low on non-blocked IP addresses. At least the ones who aren't creating garbage accounts and little else...

:--[[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 01:47, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

fix <nowiki>[[Outgassing]] definition; review [[Economic Systems and their Relation to a Mars Colony]]</nowiki> - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 01:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

==Deletion reasons:==
*unused file form unknown source with unknown copyright status

*unused non-English file with unknown copyright status
- [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

==Technical Difficulties==
What exactly goes wrong when you edit and what do I need to do to duplicate the problem on my end? -- [[Special:Contributions/173.74.208.113|173.74.208.113]] 06:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I suppose messaging might work better if I'd remember to log in first, which reminds me of another problem I've been baffled by: why WHUMP is no longer able to log into here. I get this error message:

the high score is 670
Starting check for site http://marspedia.org
Logging In
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/[SNIP path]/WHUMP_M814_1247_marsp.py", line 192, in <module>
BR.select_form(name="userlogin")
File "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/mechanize/_mechanize.py", line 530, in select_form
raise FormNotFoundError("no form matching "+description)
mechanize._mechanize.FormNotFoundError: no form matching name 'userlogin'

...And I've been unable to figure out why. It was working before and only breaks for this wiki out of the five I'm presently running or trying to run [[User:WHUMP|WHUMP]] on.

Okay, I just hit preview and fot a page full of hyperlinks that are definitely not wanted. The background graphics were intact, and I belivee the text was over the graphics. Is this the problem you're running into? I'm still not sure how it could be caused. ...unless this is something in addition to what you're running into and it's happened since the last time I looked...

Interestingly, Firefox's built in spell checker isn't working right now as I type this.

There it goes again. First the links, then the template, and the links are under the graphics and a few DIVs that are part of the template.

hmm.

-- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 06:17, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

WHUMP's last ban here was 7 August, which may correspond to the problem unless it corresponds to my disk trouble that took my workstation offline for 2-3 weeks (doesn't look like it). When did the page full of garge links problem start? -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 06:36, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I've replaced the main directory's non-data php files with a set copied from exodictionary and am attempting to reproduce the problem. I'm not succeeding. Maybe this has been going on longer than I suspected?

Bonus: WHUMP is now able to log in again! -- so if the problem has been around since at least May (going by the date stamps on the files before I overwrote them, which is the date the attack I knew about was removed), why did it not become a problem for WHUMP until August? -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 07:01, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
:From your message it seems that you have found the problem that I mentioned on your talk page at Lunarpedia on the 17th of August. The symptoms you describe are consistent with what I see, but I do not notice the problems with WHUMP or Firefox because I do not run these programs. A possibility that I can guess at for staged symptoms is that at one point an attacker got access to the system and later by using that access found a place to make alterations that caused present symptoms. That is as close as I can come to being helpful. I no nothing in particular about programming wikis or setting them up. Good luck. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 10:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
::I hope the problem is fixed now. I did not see the spam links filling the screen when I edited my talk page last. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 10:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
:::On the Recent Changes page click on the Show Bots link to see what WHUMP has been up to lately. 8) -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 11:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
::::Good work! - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:20, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

==whoops==
Yes, I agree that anonymous people should not be allowed to crap up Marspedia. If we force them to create an account, that discourages a lot of spam right there. If they actually create an account and log in, it's far easier to get rid of all their crap; JamesG has a script to help mechanize spam removal. [[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 20:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

==more SPAM==
Yes, I agree that anonymous people should not be allowed to crap up Marspedia. If we force them to create an account, that discourages a lot of spam right there. If they actually create an account and log in, it's far easier to get rid of all their crap; JamesG has a script to help mechanize spam removal. [[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 19:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

:I have to disagree: the anonymous attacks expose their IP addresses and we can deal with them for however long we need to (180 days almost always works): they run out of IP addresses and can't attack anymore until they get new ones -- and then those get banned for 180 days too. When they create accounts they're protected: they can create new accounts continuously, and the longest the IP gets blocked is 24 hours. Give me anonymous IP attacks any day. It's the account-creating attacks that are a problem. If we want to get desperate, blocking account creation would go a lot further towards bringing the situation under control. The [[User:WHUMP|WHUMP]] script is running as I type and has been for quite awhile. I haven't thought of an algorithm for detecting damaging attacks to existing articles (so WHEMP automatically ignores such attacks), but I believe the Bad Behavior extension can help deal with those if we install it. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 20:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

::I replied on Miros1's talk page before seeing Strangelv's comment too. As to blocking IP addresses, I am not sure it does any good. I have checked for deleted contributions from IPs when removing their SPAM and only a couple of times have I found any. In those cases I blocked the IP. It may be that there is some other way of spoofing the system to give multiple IP addresses to one user than using a bot-net; or there may be so many zombie addresses available that the spammer never needs to use one twice. I am certain that I have never seen an over 180 day old deleted contribution listed to an IP. I will mention here too that I suspect a virus in my e-mail account. So I will try not to pass it along as we do what we can. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
::Now I see that undone contributions do not show up as deleted contributions on Marspedia like they do on Wikipedia. That makes things different than I suspected. I will start blocking IP address spammers more. Changing deleted contributions to include undone contributions might be more trouble than it is worth. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

==Featured article==
How do you think about [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk%3AMain_Page&diff=7767&oldid=7489 this proposal]? Problem is, I do not have permission to do it myself. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:50, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
:Whatever article you think would be good as a featured article is likely to be an improvement over leaving the same featured article for years. I have no experience in changing featured articles. I was just given administrator powers when there was a rash of vandalism to the wiki so I could help with that, but I have little technical knowledge about how a wiki is managed. People who disagree with your choice have every opportunity to voice there opinions. I have seen no objections to your proposal so far. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:01, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
All you need is to edit [[Template:Featured article]]. You may just copy parts of the selected article into there, and that is that. I have not the permission to do it, that is why I am asking you. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 21:07, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I have created a draft [[Template:Featured article draft|here]]. Could you please have a look and, may be after some enhancement or not, put it in [[Template:Featured article|there]] in order to make it appear on the main page? Thanks.

One more thing: Sorry for writing onto you user's page. I am going to move all the discussion stuff to your talk page, and I hope this is okay with you. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 14:50, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

:Thanks for moving the talk to my talk page. I was thinking I would get around to it sooner or later. I did see your edit on my user page and on <nowiki>[[Talk:Equipment for autonomous growth]]</nowiki> earlier but was still considering how to respond when I had the time. You have made it so easy for me now that I will first edit the featured article template and see what happens, second get back to autonomous growth later. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:34, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

==Sorry==
Note to self: never again edit Marspedia just because you think the medicine has worn off. I ''really'' messed that [[semimajor axis]] article up. Sorry. [[User:ChristiaanK|ChristiaanK]] 04:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

== user Rfc is blocked ==

Is blocking a proper mitigation for the massive bot attacks? We had better enhance the captcha, because our captcha works really poor. Obviously, the bots have no problem in dealing with our captcha. -- Rfc
:I recently finished 142 actions of blocking, deleting, and undoing the actions of spammers and vandals. I spent two hours and one minute doing that. I also unblocked Rfc. User:Strangelv, our local bureaucrat, changed the new account requirements at Lunarpedia to require requesting an account to get one. That helped. I suppose he could do the same for Marspedia. I will ask. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:07, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
::What was done to reduce spam at Lunarpedia does not seem appropriate for Marspedia. If Whump just keeps working as planned, it is not too much trouble. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
:Whump blocked you 22 minutes after you last recorded edit. I see nothing in that edit that should have attracted Whump's notice. Whump does not seem to have been doing it's standard job since then either. Perhaps it was altered. Something should be fixed. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! You are doing a great job here! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
== New User ==
Pete9804 has started making edits. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:24, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

== Motivation ==
See [[Motivation]] NASA reference, ''Why Mars?''. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:13, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Electric cable

2013-11-22T01:01:43Z

Farred: Dubious assertions

== Dubious assertions ==
There have been no substantive changes in this article since 2008, but I am unsure of certain assertions made by the article. Why should it state about electric cable: "It must be recyclable." and "It must be fire-proof."?

There are benefits from having things recyclable and fire-proof, but perhaps some lack of recyclability and fire-proof quality can be tolerated if the expense of providing these qualities absolutely is too great. One way of increasing fire resistance for electrical cables would be to have the cable within a plastic tube pressurized with argon. Connecting the electrical cables could start by connecting the plastic tubes with a gas tight seal. An actuator could then operate through a gas tight barrier to bring electrical conductors into contact and complete an electrical circuit. It would be a considerable extra complication, but it might be worth while when avoiding fire in a closed environment is so important and the best electrical conductor available might be aluminum. The situation is somewhat similar to the danger of fire aboard a submarine and could benefit from some research. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 01:01, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Education

2013-11-08T08:30:48Z

Farred: fix typo

'''Education''' will be essential to the continued viability of any permanent [[settlement]]. Unless there is a constant influx of educated colonists from Earth, the long term health of the colony will depend on a well educated [[population]]. Skilled workers are needed for equipment maintenance and engineering. In the beginning, when populations are small, there may not be enough people to support a specialized educator. Education could involve distance learning with Earth based teachers or apprenticeships with adults in the settlement. Eventually, the settlement will be able to support at least a basic education infrastructure.
{{stub}}

Economic Systems and their Relation to a Mars Colony

2013-11-06T20:46:37Z

Farred: fix typos

{{Controversial}}
Economics is about the production, consumption, and distribution of goods and services. Money is included in the study in as far as money is used as a tool in most national economies. Primitive societies had producers mostly consume what they produced or give it to a spouse or child. Community defense as a service was handled by command of respected authority. Money has allowed people to specialize in the goods and services they provide. They can exchange these goods and services without concerning themselves with more than being sure that their customers have money and that their vendors have quality goods.

There are exceptions to money based economic exchanges. It is necessary that children be provided support without being able to pay for it. Military service is often still provided by command of respected authority, and the amount that soldiers are paid for their efforts is often less than what would be required to hire a fully volunteer force. Wealthy societies typically pay to provide food and shelter for those unable to afford to pay for themselves.

There are advantages to the command economy in some instances. For military forces eating G.I. food, wearing, G.I. clothes and fighting with G.I. weapons simplifies supply lines. For the poor, ration coupons or their electronic equivalents are not subject to economic vagaries. The whole society is more secure when such distribution systems exist for the poor, especially if contingency plans are made to distribute necessities in this way for the whole population if the for-money distribution system should collapse. Monetary collapse is a definite, if remote, danger for money based economies. A reason money based economies are subject to monetary collapse is that the market system of regulating prices is subject to intrinsic chaotic variation. For long times prices can go smoothly up and down as needed to distribute goods efficiently, then suddenly there is a panic and people start hoarding a scarce commodity as its price shoots upward. It is like the weather. People can make limited predictions about the weather but cannot say more than a few days ahead of time when a hurricane will strike. Additionally, since people have more control over money than they do over the weather, they sometimes alter markets in harmful ways because of their ignorance or because of perceived political necessity. For instance, governments sometimes try to make up budget deficits by printing enough money to cause massive inflation.

For a Mars colony in its initial form a command economy is likely. Most people would not be able to pay for their own transportation to Mars and ability to pay for transportation would be a poor criterion by which to select colonists. We should not have the market select who will be the first colonists. When colonization is possible, the colonists are likely to be selected for youth, good health, cooperative attitude, dedication, ability to fill more than one economic niche in the colony and a good evaluation report in years of training. Shipping colonists to Mars will be expensive. Earth will want to pick the best we can get. The goal is a colony that survives. Colonists will be picked to serve that goal. Provision of necessities is likely to be by a command economy on Mars for the same reason as it is in an army at war. The first colonists might expect to have all they want to eat of nutritious meals without paying for them, but a limited selection of kinds of food and meal times. After some time money should come into use. It may start as trading ration coupons or there may be a planned introduction of retail sales. Money is so useful that it is employed in every nation on Earth, so it is likely to be used on Mars. Money is particularly useful when the economic choices to be made become more complicated than a command economy can efficiently handle.

== See also ==
*[[Financial effort estimation]]
*[[Interplanetary commerce]]

[[Category:Settlements]]

Earth-supported colony

2013-11-06T05:13:46Z

Farred: tweaks

{{ColonyType}}
The '''Earth-supported colony''' is the most simple among all colony types. As part of a [[colonization strategy]] it may be used for further on-site studies and the construction of more advanced colonies on [[Mars]]. It can be either a [[manned one-way mission]] or a colony with regularly changed crew.

==Requirements==
To keep [[human|human beings]] alive the following basic supplies are necessary:
* [[Air]] to breathe at sufficient pressure
* [[Water]] to drink and to use for washing
* [[Food]] to provide energy for the human metabolism
* [[Heating]] of the artificial [[habitat]] to a temperature suitable for humans

But there is more to keep human beings well and fit:
* Facilities for daily [[physical exercise]] under the low Martian [[gravity]]
* Company as well as privacy
* Culture, motivation, psychological attendance, reason to live

==Comparison with other concepts==
Compared with an [[autonomous colony]] this concept has the following advantages:
* Fewer new technologies must be developed
* Smaller mass and volume of initial transportation
* Support can be adapted
* A smaller group of settlers is possible

and the following disadvantages:
* The more mass that must be shipped from [[Earth]] to maintain the colony, the higher the ongoing and long-term costs
* The colonists have fewer opportunities for their own advancement. They are subject to leadership from Earth
* Ends horribly if disasters (political, economic, or natural) on Earth cut off shipments to Mars
* Fails in a main goal of space colonization, creating a backup plan for the human species

==Support types==

===Energy and food support===
The colony receives regularly [[fuel]] and [[food]] from Earth. [[Greenhouse]]s are not necessary. [[Energy]] generation is needed mainly for heating. It can possibly be generated with [[nuclear power]].

===Energy support===
The colony receives regularly fuel from Earth. Greenhouses or [[biotechnology]] are necessary for local food production. The needed amount of energy is higher due to the fact that the energy efficiency factor of any food production is far below 1. With legacy greenhouse methods (artificially lit) the factor is about 0.001, which means the transportation of a thousand fold in energy from Earth to Mars in order to feed the colonists.

===Partial energy support===
If local energy resources are employed for local food production, the support from Earth may be reduced to cover heating and electric equipment.

==Open Issues==
* What kind of fuel can be brought from Earth to Mars with the highest energy density? Also, the mass, volume and maintainability of the power plant must be taken into consideration to answer this question.
* What are the initial costs for each support type?
* What are the long term costs for each support type?
* What is known about the efficiency factor of some food production methods?

[[Category: Concepts]]
[[Category: Manned Missions]]
[[Category: Settlements]]

Water

2013-11-04T14:16:22Z

Farred: /* Drinking water */ better word

[[Image:GlassOfWater.jpg|thumb|200px|right|A glass is filled with drinking water.]]

'''Water''' is a chemical compound consisting of a single [[oxygen]] atom bonded to two [[hydrogen]] atoms (''chemical symbols:'' H2O). Clean water is essential to almost all known forms of life, and its unique properties make it invaluable for most industrial processes. While water in the liquid phase is abundant on [[Earth]], its icy deposits on [[Mars]] make it into a critical resource to be treasured.

==Evidence for water on Mars==
[[Image:388886main_mars_ice_226x170.jpg|thumb|226px|right|A new crater full of melting ice, as seen from the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter.]]
Starting in 2004, the evidence of the presence of water on Mars has been mounting. The [[Opportunity]] rover discovered geological markers - stratification and cross-bedding - near its landing site which pointed to significant flows of water at some time in Mars' history. Around the same time the [[Mars Express]] orbiter detected the spectral evidence of water present in the polar regions. In 2005, Mars Express confirmed this by locating an area of solid water ice near the north pole. The [[Phoenix]] lander confirmed the existence of water ice in Mars.

Photos from the [[Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter]] show frozen water just below the Martian surface (see photograph). Surprisingly the location is far away from the poles (43.28 degrees north latitude, 164.22 degrees east longitude), which raises the hope of large amounts of water all over the planet.
<ref>[http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/news/mro20090924.html Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter Sees Ice Exposed by Meteor Impact]</ref>

===Measuring the abundance of water ice===
[[Image:MARSIS.jpg|thumb|200px|right|A MARSIS map of Mars' south pole ice deposits.]]
On March 15, 2007, [[Mars Express]]' mission control released more news of extensive frozen water discovered at the Martian [[south pole]]. These new and highly accurate measurements predict that if the ice were to be melted, the whole planet would be covered in a liquid layer 11 meters deep. Although it has been known for many years that the poles have an abundance of ice, it has never been measured to this degree of accuracy. The data comes from the Mars Advanced Radar for Subsurface and Ionospheric Sounding (MARSIS) currently mapping the north pole to gain a better understanding of how much frozen water may be contained there. MARSIS can probe over 2 miles below the Martian surface and has found extensive layered deposits of ice.

Mars shows evidence of extensive liquid water flowing on its surface in the past and it is the focus of many Mars missions to find out how this water has leaked away over the millennia. Martian polar ice may be the culprit, suggesting Mars may once have had a warmer climate, slowly cooling as the atmosphere became a more inefficient insulator for the meager heating from the distant Sun.

===Evidence for liquid water?===

Future manned exploration on Mars will require a source of water whether it is in the form of ice or sub-surface [[aquifers]]. The [[Mars Express]] orbiter has uncovered some confusing measurements suggesting there may be liquid water accompanying all that ice. MARSIS bounced back data suggesting at least 90% of the layered deposits under the polar cap are indeed supplies of ice, but a thin layer resembling liquid water is also evident. It is hard to understand the existence of liquid water at the extremely low temperatures predicted. Perhaps high pressures or small geological processes may explain these observations. Another orbiter, NASA's Mars Global Surveyor, has also returned some exciting new evidence for the existence of new flows of liquid water on the Martian surface away from the frozen poles. {{science question|What pressures are required to keep water in a liquid phase at temperatures as low as that on the surface of Mars? - [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]]}}

The [[Mars Global Surveyor]] arrived at the Red Planet on September 11, 1997 and returned a decade of data on the evolution of the planet before it was lost in November 2006 through energy loss. It was Mars' longest operational artificial satellite. The Mars Orbiter Camera (MOC) onboard revealed new deposits possibly carried as sediment by flowing water in two locations in the past 7 years (press release dated December 6, 2006)<ref>[http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/newsroom/20061206a.html NASA Press Release: ''NASA Images Suggest Water Still Flows in Brief Spurts on Mars'']</ref>. In images taken in August 1999 and September 2006 of the same location ([[Centauri Montes]] Region), a bright deposit measuring several hundred meters long is evident in the 2006 image but not in the 1999 image. A similar feature was observed at a different location from 2001 to 2005 at [[Terra Sirenum]]. It is worth noting that both locations are in equatorial regions, not usually associated with ice or liquid water. This suggests liquid water remains a characteristic of the Mars landscape, if only sporadically. These discoveries have increased the enthusiasm for the search for [[microbes|microbial life]], but the implications for manned exploration are huge. If there are pockets of liquid water just below the surface, Mars may yet be able to provide our future pioneers with natural springs more familiar on Earth.
[[Image:Water_deposit.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Evidence from the [[Mars Global Surveyor]] MOC instrument that spurts of liquid water may sporadically flow on the Martian surface]]
However, surface water on Mars is short-lived. The Martian atmosphere is very thin (a pressure of 7 millibars, <1% that of Earth's thick atmosphere) and cold (an average global temperature of -55°C or -67F), these two factors deny any long-term existence of liquid water. Surface liquid water will quickly freeze and [[sublimation|sublime]] into the atmosphere, bypassing the [[triple point|liquid phase]]. This phase transition for water on Mars is much like the phase transition for liquid carbon dioxide on Earth when it is released from a CO2 fire extinguisher to produce dry ice snow and CO2 gas. The phase transition for H2O on the surface of Mars occurs below the "[[triple point]]" on the phase diagram so the recent observations of sediment on the surface will have been deposited very quickly by short lived "spurts" of water. Just how short-lived these spurts of water are it is unknown, but a significant volume must have created a formidable river to carry sediment several hundred meters.

Although there may be other explanations for these long "channels" of sediment, such as rock slides or wind-blown [[sand]] features, the appearance of the deposits seem very water-like. Michael Malin of Malin Space Science Systems, a mission scientist for the MOC says, "''The shapes of these deposits are what you would expect to see if the material were carried by flowing water... they have finger-like branches at the downhill end and easily diverted around small obstacles''".<ref>[http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/newsroom/20061206a.html NASA Press Release: ''NASA Images Suggest Water Still Flows in Brief Spurts on Mars'']</ref> It is also possible that other liquids such as 1,2-butanediol, 1,3-butanediol, 1,2-propanediol, 1,3-propanediol, ethylene glycol and related liquids could be responsible for [[Recent Liquid Flow on Mars|fluid flow features]] on Mars. While such liquids would be relatively more rare than water, the resistance to freezing of such liquids and mixtures of such liquids with water would allow them to cause fluid flow effects where pure liquid water is impossible.

===Mineral alterations by ancient water flows===

Further support for the existence of flowing water comes from the first observations made by NASA's [[Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter]] (launched in 2005) where the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera spotted small fractures and cracks in the Martian canyon, [[Candor Chasma]]. The cracks analyzed show signs of mineral alteration in the rock exposed - a sign that liquid water once flowed through these sub-surface pipes.

:"''What caught my eye was the bleaching or lack of dark material along the fracture. That is a sign of mineral alteration by fluids that moved through those joints. It reminded me of something I had seen during field studies in Utah, that is light-tone zones, or 'haloes,' on either side of cracks through darker sandstone''" - Dr. Chris Okubo, a geologist at the University of Arizona, Tucson.

Although this is a sign that the liquid water has since disappeared from these cracks and fractures in the canyon rock, it is interesting to find evidence for ancient water in abundance.

===Other discoveries===
*The 1996 [[Mars Pathfinder]] mission discovered plentiful evidence that its landing site, [[Ares Vallis]], was once the bottom of a huge valley system eroded by ancient water.

==More sources of water==

===Atmosphere===
The Martian [[atmosphere]] contains a small percentage of water. With a device similar to an [[atmospheric mining|air dehumidifier]] the production of water should be able all over the planet's surface. An [[experimental setup#water out of the atmosphere|experimental setup]] is necessary to find out all about the viability of this approach.

===Caves===
Since the discovery of [[caves]] scientists believe in the possibility of water ice on the ground of the caves. Water ice is abundant under the ground atleast near the poles, and probably elsewhere too.

===Glaciers===
The [[Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter]] has found evidence of [[glacier|glaciers]] covered in regolith.<ref>http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2008/nov/HQ_08-304_MRO_BuriedGlaciers.html</ref> Radar reflection data indicates that these are not Rock Glaciers that have been previously suspected on Mars, but instead are thick glacial ice covered in a thin layer of debris. The buried glaciers lie in the [[Hellas Planitia|Hellas Basin]] region of Mars' southern hemisphere with similar aprons detected extending from cliffs in the northern hemisphere.

==Usage==

===Drinking water===
The [[human]] metabolism requires a regular intake of fresh water. Pure liquid water is non-existent on Mars but there is abundant frozen water and hydrated minerals. Since getting liquid water for use will require some industrial effort, the [[recycling]] of all excretion would provide advantages in reducing water use. There are two ways: Wastewater can be [[technical wastewater treatment|treated with technical means]], which is partially done on the [[ISS]] already. Alternatively, the water can be kept in a nearly natural cycle, using parts of the [[greenhouse]]s for [[biological wastewater treatment]].

The concentration of deuterium in Martian hydrogen and thus in Martian water is between five and thirteen ten-thousandth-parts.<ref>[http://www.sciencemag.org/content/240/4860/1767.abstract abstract in ''Science'']</ref> or about six times the relative abundance on Earth. Still this concentration is far from the 25% of the body's content of hydrogen that would need to be substituted by deuterium before there are any serious health effects. Deuterium is not a cumulative poison. At about one thousandth part of the hydrogen in Martian water, deuterium would be excreted as fast as it is consumed and would be no health problem.

===Industrial processes===

Many industrial processes considered for a Mars settlement, in particular the production of [[methanol]] and [[methane]], require hydrogen gas. This can be obtained by [[electrolysis]], with oxygen gas as a byproduct.

Most other processes require the use of significant quantities of water as a [[solvent]] for reagents such as [[acid]]s or [[ammonia]].

==External Links==

*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water Wikipedia page on water]
*[http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/express/mission/sc_science_marsis02.html Searching for water with the Mars Express MARSIS instrument.]

===References===
<references/>

[[category:Climate]]
[[category:Chemistry]]

Water

2013-11-04T14:05:19Z

Farred: additions

[[Image:GlassOfWater.jpg|thumb|200px|right|A glass is filled with drinking water.]]

'''Water''' is a chemical compound consisting of a single [[oxygen]] atom bonded to two [[hydrogen]] atoms (''chemical symbols:'' H2O). Clean water is essential to almost all known forms of life, and its unique properties make it invaluable for most industrial processes. While water in the liquid phase is abundant on [[Earth]], its icy deposits on [[Mars]] make it into a critical resource to be treasured.

==Evidence for water on Mars==
[[Image:388886main_mars_ice_226x170.jpg|thumb|226px|right|A new crater full of melting ice, as seen from the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter.]]
Starting in 2004, the evidence of the presence of water on Mars has been mounting. The [[Opportunity]] rover discovered geological markers - stratification and cross-bedding - near its landing site which pointed to significant flows of water at some time in Mars' history. Around the same time the [[Mars Express]] orbiter detected the spectral evidence of water present in the polar regions. In 2005, Mars Express confirmed this by locating an area of solid water ice near the north pole. The [[Phoenix]] lander confirmed the existence of water ice in Mars.

Photos from the [[Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter]] show frozen water just below the Martian surface (see photograph). Surprisingly the location is far away from the poles (43.28 degrees north latitude, 164.22 degrees east longitude), which raises the hope of large amounts of water all over the planet.
<ref>[http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/news/mro20090924.html Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter Sees Ice Exposed by Meteor Impact]</ref>

===Measuring the abundance of water ice===
[[Image:MARSIS.jpg|thumb|200px|right|A MARSIS map of Mars' south pole ice deposits.]]
On March 15, 2007, [[Mars Express]]' mission control released more news of extensive frozen water discovered at the Martian [[south pole]]. These new and highly accurate measurements predict that if the ice were to be melted, the whole planet would be covered in a liquid layer 11 meters deep. Although it has been known for many years that the poles have an abundance of ice, it has never been measured to this degree of accuracy. The data comes from the Mars Advanced Radar for Subsurface and Ionospheric Sounding (MARSIS) currently mapping the north pole to gain a better understanding of how much frozen water may be contained there. MARSIS can probe over 2 miles below the Martian surface and has found extensive layered deposits of ice.

Mars shows evidence of extensive liquid water flowing on its surface in the past and it is the focus of many Mars missions to find out how this water has leaked away over the millennia. Martian polar ice may be the culprit, suggesting Mars may once have had a warmer climate, slowly cooling as the atmosphere became a more inefficient insulator for the meager heating from the distant Sun.

===Evidence for liquid water?===

Future manned exploration on Mars will require a source of water whether it is in the form of ice or sub-surface [[aquifers]]. The [[Mars Express]] orbiter has uncovered some confusing measurements suggesting there may be liquid water accompanying all that ice. MARSIS bounced back data suggesting at least 90% of the layered deposits under the polar cap are indeed supplies of ice, but a thin layer resembling liquid water is also evident. It is hard to understand the existence of liquid water at the extremely low temperatures predicted. Perhaps high pressures or small geological processes may explain these observations. Another orbiter, NASA's Mars Global Surveyor, has also returned some exciting new evidence for the existence of new flows of liquid water on the Martian surface away from the frozen poles. {{science question|What pressures are required to keep water in a liquid phase at temperatures as low as that on the surface of Mars? - [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]]}}

The [[Mars Global Surveyor]] arrived at the Red Planet on September 11, 1997 and returned a decade of data on the evolution of the planet before it was lost in November 2006 through energy loss. It was Mars' longest operational artificial satellite. The Mars Orbiter Camera (MOC) onboard revealed new deposits possibly carried as sediment by flowing water in two locations in the past 7 years (press release dated December 6, 2006)<ref>[http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/newsroom/20061206a.html NASA Press Release: ''NASA Images Suggest Water Still Flows in Brief Spurts on Mars'']</ref>. In images taken in August 1999 and September 2006 of the same location ([[Centauri Montes]] Region), a bright deposit measuring several hundred meters long is evident in the 2006 image but not in the 1999 image. A similar feature was observed at a different location from 2001 to 2005 at [[Terra Sirenum]]. It is worth noting that both locations are in equatorial regions, not usually associated with ice or liquid water. This suggests liquid water remains a characteristic of the Mars landscape, if only sporadically. These discoveries have increased the enthusiasm for the search for [[microbes|microbial life]], but the implications for manned exploration are huge. If there are pockets of liquid water just below the surface, Mars may yet be able to provide our future pioneers with natural springs more familiar on Earth.
[[Image:Water_deposit.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Evidence from the [[Mars Global Surveyor]] MOC instrument that spurts of liquid water may sporadically flow on the Martian surface]]
However, surface water on Mars is short-lived. The Martian atmosphere is very thin (a pressure of 7 millibars, <1% that of Earth's thick atmosphere) and cold (an average global temperature of -55°C or -67F), these two factors deny any long-term existence of liquid water. Surface liquid water will quickly freeze and [[sublimation|sublime]] into the atmosphere, bypassing the [[triple point|liquid phase]]. This phase transition for water on Mars is much like the phase transition for liquid carbon dioxide on Earth when it is released from a CO2 fire extinguisher to produce dry ice snow and CO2 gas. The phase transition for H2O on the surface of Mars occurs below the "[[triple point]]" on the phase diagram so the recent observations of sediment on the surface will have been deposited very quickly by short lived "spurts" of water. Just how short-lived these spurts of water are it is unknown, but a significant volume must have created a formidable river to carry sediment several hundred meters.

Although there may be other explanations for these long "channels" of sediment, such as rock slides or wind-blown [[sand]] features, the appearance of the deposits seem very water-like. Michael Malin of Malin Space Science Systems, a mission scientist for the MOC says, "''The shapes of these deposits are what you would expect to see if the material were carried by flowing water... they have finger-like branches at the downhill end and easily diverted around small obstacles''".<ref>[http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/newsroom/20061206a.html NASA Press Release: ''NASA Images Suggest Water Still Flows in Brief Spurts on Mars'']</ref> It is also possible that other liquids such as 1,2-butanediol, 1,3-butanediol, 1,2-propanediol, 1,3-propanediol, ethylene glycol and related liquids could be responsible for [[Recent Liquid Flow on Mars|fluid flow features]] on Mars. While such liquids would be relatively more rare than water, the resistance to freezing of such liquids and mixtures of such liquids with water would allow them to cause fluid flow effects where pure liquid water is impossible.

===Mineral alterations by ancient water flows===

Further support for the existence of flowing water comes from the first observations made by NASA's [[Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter]] (launched in 2005) where the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera spotted small fractures and cracks in the Martian canyon, [[Candor Chasma]]. The cracks analyzed show signs of mineral alteration in the rock exposed - a sign that liquid water once flowed through these sub-surface pipes.

:"''What caught my eye was the bleaching or lack of dark material along the fracture. That is a sign of mineral alteration by fluids that moved through those joints. It reminded me of something I had seen during field studies in Utah, that is light-tone zones, or 'haloes,' on either side of cracks through darker sandstone''" - Dr. Chris Okubo, a geologist at the University of Arizona, Tucson.

Although this is a sign that the liquid water has since disappeared from these cracks and fractures in the canyon rock, it is interesting to find evidence for ancient water in abundance.

===Other discoveries===
*The 1996 [[Mars Pathfinder]] mission discovered plentiful evidence that its landing site, [[Ares Vallis]], was once the bottom of a huge valley system eroded by ancient water.

==More sources of water==

===Atmosphere===
The Martian [[atmosphere]] contains a small percentage of water. With a device similar to an [[atmospheric mining|air dehumidifier]] the production of water should be able all over the planet's surface. An [[experimental setup#water out of the atmosphere|experimental setup]] is necessary to find out all about the viability of this approach.

===Caves===
Since the discovery of [[caves]] scientists believe in the possibility of water ice on the ground of the caves. Water ice is abundant under the ground atleast near the poles, and probably elsewhere too.

===Glaciers===
The [[Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter]] has found evidence of [[glacier|glaciers]] covered in regolith.<ref>http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2008/nov/HQ_08-304_MRO_BuriedGlaciers.html</ref> Radar reflection data indicates that these are not Rock Glaciers that have been previously suspected on Mars, but instead are thick glacial ice covered in a thin layer of debris. The buried glaciers lie in the [[Hellas Planitia|Hellas Basin]] region of Mars' southern hemisphere with similar aprons detected extending from cliffs in the northern hemisphere.

==Usage==

===Drinking water===
The [[human]] metabolism requires a regular intake of fresh water. Pure liquid water is non-existent on Mars but there is abundant frozen water and hydrated minerals. Since getting the water for use will require some industrial effort, the [[recycling]] of all excretion would provide advantages in reducing water use. There are two ways: Wastewater can be [[technical wastewater treatment|treated with technical means]], which is partially done on the [[ISS]] already. Alternatively, the water can be kept in a nearly natural cycle, using parts of the [[greenhouse]]s for [[biological wastewater treatment]].

The concentration of deuterium in Martian hydrogen and thus in Martian water is between five and thirteen ten-thousandth-parts.<ref>[http://www.sciencemag.org/content/240/4860/1767.abstract abstract in ''Science'']</ref> or about six times the relative abundance on Earth. Still this concentration is far from the 25% of the body's content of hydrogen that would need to be substituted by deuterium before there are any serious health effects. Deuterium is not a cumulative poison. At about one thousandth part of the hydrogen in Martian water, deuterium would be excreted as fast as it is consumed and would be no health problem.

===Industrial processes===

Many industrial processes considered for a Mars settlement, in particular the production of [[methanol]] and [[methane]], require hydrogen gas. This can be obtained by [[electrolysis]], with oxygen gas as a byproduct.

Most other processes require the use of significant quantities of water as a [[solvent]] for reagents such as [[acid]]s or [[ammonia]].

==External Links==

*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water Wikipedia page on water]
*[http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/express/mission/sc_science_marsis02.html Searching for water with the Mars Express MARSIS instrument.]

===References===
<references/>

[[category:Climate]]
[[category:Chemistry]]

Artificial intelligence, automated industry and colonizing Mars

2013-10-31T23:28:08Z

Farred: adding commas for clarity

{{Controversial}}
== Defining artificial intelligence ==
The sort of artificial intelligence<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence artificial intelligence]</ref> relevant to starting a colony on Mars is not the same type as human intelligence, such as the computer, HAL 9000, in the movie ''2001: A Space Odyssey''.<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001:_A_Space_Odyssey_(film) ''2001: A Space Odyssey'' at Wikipedia]</ref> What is needed is the kind of computer program that runs numerical control machining<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_numerical_control Numerical control at Wikipedia]</ref> and industrial processes. The ability to mine ice and minerals and haul them back to the factory would include techniques developed for computer-driven cars.<ref>[http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2010/10/11/google_road_testing_computer_driven_cars/ computer-driven cars]</ref> Such an artificial intelligence would not need to talk with natural language but would be more like the expert systems doctors use to help them diagnose diseases. Talking would not be part of the computer's job and would be undesirable. An artificial intelligence should be expected to do specific things that it is programmed to do better than a human being, as the chess playing computer, Deep Blue,<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_(chess_computer) ''Deep Blue (chess computer)'' at Wikipedia]</ref> did. An artificial intelligence may struggle at some things for which human judgment is beneficial. A chess playing computer has no feeling of joy for victory or sorrow for defeat. It is just as unconcerned if programmed to play poorly and loose most games as it is if programmed to win as much as possible. This lack of feelings makes a chess playing computer useful as a learning tool with a different roll than a human opponent. According to the introduction of ''Advanced Automation for Space Missions''<ref>[https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Advanced_Automation_for_Space_Missions/Chapter_1#Preface ''Advanced Automation for Space Missions'']</ref> machine intelligence has been used prove theorems, assemble machines with robotic manipulators, solve differential equations and write computer programs as well as the previously mentioned tasks.

== A lesson from ants ==
There is good reason to believe that people can design a partially self replicating industrial system for Mars along with the artificial intelligence to run it following instructions it receives from Earth after every eight hour shift of Earth bound controllers. There are ants about three hundredths of an inch from end to end that none the less pack sufficient data processing power in their tiny heads to forage all about a human kitchen, find the cookie jar, suck the grease and sugar out of the chocolate chip cookies and return to their nest in wavering curving lines stretching over more than ten feet. They find a supply of water somewhere too, probably by digging into the dirt under the house's foundation. The task for an artificial intelligence running a partially self-replicating industry on Mars might be more complicated in raw processing power, perhaps ten times, perhaps a hundred times more complicated. People have powerful enough computers sitting on their desk tops. The things that are lacking are the programming and the design of the industrial task. These two must be built together as nature built the programming and the task of the ant together. People have an advantage over nature. We can see the final goal and design for that without going through all of the evolutionary steps along the way.

== The challenge of the future ==
Colonizing Mars brings the task of advanced artificial intelligence controlled [[Automation|automated]] production to humanity while people still have a chance to successfully meet the economic challenge that goes along with it. If we put this off until the far future, it might kill us. We do not need this kind of advance in automation on Earth today because the economic problem is to distribute the fruits of production to those involved in the production. More people involved in production simplifies this task. The wealth we produce must be kept flowing like the sap in a tree, or the tree dies. That is a consequence of our current industrial economy which we must live with. The potential of automated manufacturing for producing goods without much input of labor could be too big of a change for Earth to adapt to. In outer space this advance could be helpful and might be necessary. When the technology gradually seeps back to Earth causing unemployment, the space habitats could be ready and waiting for emigrants from Earth looking for new homes. Space habitats could be flipping out of their factories like flap jacks, loading up with people and sailing off into the sunshine. The expanding economy resulting from people emigrating to outer space could soak up the increased productive power which otherwise might constipate the whole system. Mars is an ideal place for this to begin. People have written arguments like: " No significant fraction of Earth’s population will ever physically move off this planet." as if it were a statement from God and we must believe. In truth, there are physically possible means of transporting billions of people off of Earth.<ref>[http://www.lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Eddy_Current_Brake_to_Orbit ''Eddy Current Brake to Orbit'' at Lunarpedia]</ref> The doubt is about whether or not people will have the political will and economic strength to make use of some of these possibilities.

== Alternative industrial development ==
Why not send people to run industry rather than an artificial intelligence? People are very useful for controlling industry. Their intelligence is already demonstrated and does not need to be artificially programmed. However, people eat much food. They require drinking water, air and a host of special accommodations that are expensive to provide on Mars. People should run the industry on Mars but only after it has first been established by automatic machinery under control of an artificial intelligence directed from Earth. When the infrastructure is developed to support people, that is the time for people to arrive on Mars. Since industrial production on Mars will provide the recycling of air and water for people which is provided by nature on Earth, the ratio of industrial production per person will need to be higher than it is today on Earth. If people do not develop artificial intelligence as required to run an industry on Mars with only executive level instructions from Earth, the alternative of having people on Mars from day one of the colony is an expense to deal with in some other way.

Why not develop the Earth's moon which is closer and does not need this artificial intelligence? Luna could be developed also, but it has some severe shortages of materials needed for industrial production. Luna would need to recycle some materials with great efficiency and continue to import materials, perhaps from Mars. Developing industry first on Mars would make lunar development easier.

== The options we have ==
Technological progress in industry is an unavoidable consequence of human nature. It is as though we were riding along on a train. We can direct the train to arrive safely at its destination, or we can ignore the train and end up in a wreck. Before 1700 the majority of people of each country were farmers. By the year 1900 Europe and the United States had made considerable progress in urban living and manufacturing technology. At that time, if we had simply forgotten how to use steam power and all the factories had stopped, people could have all gone back to farming without many starving because of the transition. If the industrial economy were to stop today, billions could die from famine. We can choose from possible futures. Refusing to enter the future is not an option.

There are not many attractive solutions to this problem. Outer space based manufacturing, with much larger access to materials and energy than Earth, provides an attractive solution to aim at. Artificial intelligence is one of the areas of potential advance that could lead to the higher productivity that might be necessary to establish colonies off of Earth.

== References ==
<references/>

[[Category:Emerging Technology]]
[[Category:Settlements]]

Talk:Artificial intelligence, automated industry and colonizing Mars

2013-10-31T22:46:12Z

Farred: child emigrants

== 44 quadrillion dollars for a Mars colony? ==
In other words, this doesn't make any sense because we can simply just stay on Earth and die for all we care. It will cost approximetly 44 quadrillion dollars, which I cannot find. I bring up 44 quadrillion dollars because I am a part of a massive debate team and we freaking rule. Continuing on, a part in the Negitive debate paaper says that it will cost "44 Quadrillion Dollars." I HAVE LOST COUNTLESS DEBATES BY USING THAT. MY DEBATE COACH WILL NOT LET ME USE ANY OTHER TYPE OF PAPER. SO THANKS A LOT MARSPEDIA!!!!!!!!!! I FREAKING HATE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
::- The preceding comment was added to the article page by [[User:Wtf]] at 19:08 hours on the 10th of December 2011
:The figure of 44 quadrillion dollars for a Mars Colony is unsupported. There have been estimates of varying amounts for a human piloted mission to Mars at various times. In April 2004 Mark Thornton gave estimates of one-hundred-seventy-billion dollars and one-trillion dollars.([http://www.lewrockwell.com/2004/04/mark-thornton/no-more-socialist-space-shots/ ''Bush's Mission to Mars'']) A January 2004 estimate was between forty and eighty billion dollars.([http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4551-bush-to-announce-manned-mission-to-mars.html ''Bush to announce manned mission to Mars ''])

:I will make a moderate estimate of one-half-trillion dollars for a human piloted mission to Mars. For this one would get five people and their return vehicle to Mars. I would dispense with the return vehicle and instead assume the development of the artificial intelligence discussed in the article which would be sent along with industrial equipment to form the industrial infrastructure of a colony on Mars. Shipments of industrial equipment would precede the shipment of colonists. Sixteen shipments of industrial equipment and four shipments of fifty colonists should be enough to start a colony on an economic basis. The first shipment would be devoted to converting some of Phobos into a space based solar power station. The total cost might be about ten trillion dollars. It is impossible to make any definite cost estimates but the figure of 44 quadrillion dollars just seems excessive to me. More research into what is required and more development of the necessary technologies seems to be what is called for now. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 06:52, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

:What people would get for ten trillion dollars would be 45,000 thousand tons of supplies and industrial equipment; including an artificial intelligence for controlling industrial operations and including a space based solar power system of 10 Gigawatts; and 200 colonists. There have been comments made that setting up agricultural production on Mars would be easy considering all of the ice available for melting into water for agricultural use. It would not be easy. Recycling the agricultural and human wastes to produce the required fertilizer inputs would need to be demonstrated on Earth before sending a system in kit form off to Mars. Such a system has not been demonstrated on yet on Earth. The closest technologies that I can think of that have been demonstrated are the Biosphere II project that was not a complete success, municipal sewage treatment systems, and agricultural waste treatment ponds. It is a long way to developing what would be needed on Mars using only inputs available on Mars. A guess at the development cost for such a system is a billion dollars, which when added to the other costs of establishing a Mars colony results in a total cost of ten trillion dollars. This is <strike>44,000</strike> (4,400) (correction added) times less than estimated by <nowiki>[[User:Wtf]]</nowiki> but none the less it is a considerable sum. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 04:21, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
::Those pesky decimal points can make a difference, which illustrates that my estimations are not a promise to reveal the future. Making another estimate with somewhat more optimistic assumptions I dispense with the artificial intelligence and have a crew of twelve on Mars from the start to oversee and operate the machines building the infrastructure and industrial base. In this instance I get 1,000 tons of equipment and supplies to Mars with the first 12 colonists. Later 188 more colonists arrive to fill out all operations and eat their own produce. This iteration comes to 1.4 trillion dollars or 31,000 times less than <nowiki>[[user:Wtf]]</nowiki>. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:39, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

==AI==
Artificial intelligence (AI) does not exist. It would be wrong to say that it does not yet exist. It simply does not exist. There is a probability of AI to be developed in the future, but I do not think this probability is very high. I have tried it myself. I was kind of successful to a certain degree. But it occurred to me that it is not really intelligent. It will never be, at least in the way I implemented the structure. Still, it was an intriguing thing to watch. A nice toy. Real AI, however, is science fiction. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
:The question of whether artificial intelligence exists or not can be defined to suit either answer that you might want to get. There are expert systems used [http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7590609.html now] in medical diagnosis that can be called artificial intelligence. Systems that are actually useful require a human expert to use them and are more an extension of the doctor's memory and knowledge than a primary source of diagnosis. There are also efforts to sell artificially intelligent medical diagnosis on line without a human doctor involved. I do not know how these schemes avoid criminal prosecution for practicing medicine without a license, but some people manage to avoid breaking the law on technical grounds while seeming to advertise medical services that they cannot legally provide. Artificial intelligence drives the Curiosity rover, extending the abilities of controllers on Earth. Customer [http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1643823.1643908 support by telephone] and internet is provided by artificial intelligence. I may not have found the best documentation for existing artificial intelligent capabilities, but I know there is a wide range of practical applications today. They are just not up to running the industrial operations of a Mars Colony yet. You seem to use the phrase "science fiction" in a derogatory way and I know that many people do so. However a Mars colony is as much science fiction as artificial intelligence is. I do not consider the mere fact that someone has written science fiction in which a Mars colony is accomplished and science fiction in which artificial intelligence has capabilities are advanced beyond actual current accomplishments as a reason for discarding consideration of either concept. The future capabilities of artificial intelligence are somewhat speculative. I do not present them as anything else. It is something to keep an eye on in case the most desirable plan for colonization changes because of technical developments. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:08, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

My definition of AI: Sure, there are several devices that claim to run on AI. There is no clear definition as yes. But what I mean is intelligence that is as powerful as a human being, or even more. An automatic function of the rover is far from real intelligence. My definition of SF: Science fiction describes ideas that are in conflict with scientific facts or ideas that can not yet worked out due to a profound lack of knowledge on the matter. Example: Warpdrive. A colonization of Mars, however, is not science fiction, because we know roughly how to do it. There are no scientific or technical blocking points. All it needs is engineering effort and a lot of money. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
:I see that there has been a misunderstanding of each other's definitions. I read H.G. Wells' story [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Land_Ironclads The Land Ironclads] in a collection of science fiction stories and considered it science fiction even though there were no "ideas that are in conflict with scientific facts" presented. It seems that a plethora of science fiction that does contradict scientific fact has led to many people accepting this as a necessary part of the definition of science fiction. I guess we can accept your definition of science fiction as the more popular currently used definition. As to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence artificial intelligence], there is considerable current work going on in the field. Researchers do not consider that intelligence as powerful as a human being is necessary for artificial intelligence. Nowhere in the article did I suggest that an artificial intelligence running industrial operations on Mars would have an intellect as powerful as a human being. I suppose I should make it clear in the article that human equivalent intelligence in a machine is not what is needed or desired to run industry on Mars, and explicitly reject your definition of artificial intelligence. If ants had a taste for ice instead of grease, could survive on Mars, and had bodies as large as dump trucks; they would have sufficient intelligence to harvest the ice on Mars for a colony. Artificial intelligence has already been used to drive vehicles in traffic in an American city while following traffic laws. I think it would be only a matter of time and money to develop the capability of running mining and manufacturing on Mars. It would not in any way require talking in natural human language. Naturally such a machine would be able to do things that people cannot, just as computers can make calculations and simulations that people would be unable to do without computers. I think I am not suggesting anything for which there is a profound lack of knowledge on the matter. Your comments have been quite helpful. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 03:26, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

== Child Emigrants ==
I spoke to someone about the possibility of mass emigration from Earth into habitats in independent orbit about the sun and she said that it could not go on long because the population of Earth would grow old without its children. I explained that children would generally emigrate only as part of a complete family. Otherwise emigrants would likely be people from about 18 to 30 years of age, married couples and single people. I wondered how she could have gotten the idea that emigrants would be children. Then I recalled that my own writing referred to emigrants figuratively as children. We are all children of Earth, even if some of us are eighty years old. I will change "the children of Earth" to "emigrants from Earth" in case that was the source of the problem. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:46, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Artificial intelligence, automated industry and colonizing Mars

2013-10-31T22:42:11Z

Farred: tweak

{{Controversial}}
== Defining artificial intelligence ==
The sort of artificial intelligence<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence artificial intelligence]</ref> relevant to starting a colony on Mars is not the same type as human intelligence, such as the computer, HAL 9000, in the movie ''2001: A Space Odyssey''.<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001:_A_Space_Odyssey_(film) ''2001: A Space Odyssey'' at Wikipedia]</ref> What is needed is the kind of computer program that runs numerical control machining<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_numerical_control Numerical control at Wikipedia]</ref> and industrial processes. The ability to mine ice and minerals and haul them back to the factory would include techniques developed for computer-driven cars.<ref>[http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2010/10/11/google_road_testing_computer_driven_cars/ computer-driven cars]</ref> Such an artificial intelligence would not need to talk with natural language but would be more like the expert systems doctors use to help them diagnose diseases. Talking would not be part of the computer's job and would be undesirable. An artificial intelligence should be expected to do specific things that it is programmed to do better than a human being, as the chess playing computer, Deep Blue,<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_(chess_computer) ''Deep Blue (chess computer)'' at Wikipedia]</ref> did. An artificial intelligence may struggle at some things for which human judgment is beneficial. A chess playing computer has no feeling of joy for victory or sorrow for defeat. It is just as unconcerned if programmed to play poorly and loose most games as it is if programmed to win as much as possible. This lack of feelings makes a chess playing computer useful as a learning tool with a different roll than a human opponent. According to the introduction of ''Advanced Automation for Space Missions''<ref>[https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Advanced_Automation_for_Space_Missions/Chapter_1#Preface ''Advanced Automation for Space Missions'']</ref> machine intelligence has been used prove theorems, assemble machines with robotic manipulators, solve differential equations and write computer programs as well as the previously mentioned tasks.

== A lesson from ants ==
There is good reason to believe that people can design a partially self replicating industrial system for Mars along with the artificial intelligence to run it following instructions it receives from Earth after every eight hour shift of Earth bound controllers. There are ants about three hundredths of an inch from end to end that none the less pack sufficient data processing power in their tiny heads to forage all about a human kitchen, find the cookie jar, suck the grease and sugar out of the chocolate chip cookies and return to their nest in wavering curving lines stretching over more than ten feet. They find a supply of water somewhere too, probably by digging into the dirt under the house's foundation. The task for an artificial intelligence running a partially self-replicating industry on Mars might be more complicated in raw processing power, perhaps ten times, perhaps a hundred times more complicated. People have powerful enough computers sitting on their desk tops. The things that are lacking are the programming and the design of the industrial task. These two must be built together as nature built the programming and the task of the ant together. People have an advantage over nature. We can see the final goal and design for that without going through all of the evolutionary steps along the way.

== The challenge of the future ==
Colonizing Mars brings the task of advanced artificial intelligence controlled [[Automation|automated]] production to humanity while people still have a chance to successfully meet the economic challenge that goes along with it. If we put this off until the far future, it might kill us. We do not need this kind of advance in automation on Earth today because the economic problem is to distribute the fruits of production to those involved in the production. More people involved in production simplifies this task. The wealth we produce must be kept flowing like the sap in a tree, or the tree dies. That is a consequence of our current industrial economy which we must live with. The potential of automated manufacturing for producing goods without much input of labor could be too big of a change for Earth to adapt to. In outer space this advance could be helpful and might be necessary. When the technology gradually seeps back to Earth causing unemployment, the space habitats could be ready and waiting for emigrants from Earth looking for new homes. Space habitats could be flipping out of their factories like flap jacks, loading up with people and sailing off into the sunshine. The expanding economy resulting from people emigrating to outer space could soak up the increased productive power which otherwise might constipate the whole system. Mars is an ideal place for this to begin. People have written arguments like: " No significant fraction of Earth’s population will ever physically move off this planet." as if it were a statement from God and we must believe. In truth, there are physically possible means of transporting billions of people off of Earth.<ref>[http://www.lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Eddy_Current_Brake_to_Orbit ''Eddy Current Brake to Orbit'' at Lunarpedia]</ref> The doubt is about whether or not people will have the political will and economic strength to make use of some of these possibilities.

== Alternative industrial development ==
Why not send people to run industry rather than an artificial intelligence? People are very useful for controlling industry. Their intelligence is already demonstrated and does not need to be artificially programmed. However, people eat much food. They require drinking water, air and a host of special accommodations that are expensive to provide on Mars. People should run the industry on Mars but only after it has first been established by automatic machinery under control of an artificial intelligence directed from Earth. When the infrastructure is developed to support people, that is the time for people to arrive on Mars. Since industrial production on Mars will provide the recycling of air and water for people which is provided by nature on Earth, the ratio of industrial production per person will need to be higher than it is today on Earth. If people do not develop artificial intelligence as required to run an industry on Mars with only executive level instructions from Earth, the alternative of having people on Mars from day one of the colony is an expense to deal with in some other way.

Why not develop the Earth's moon which is closer and does not need this artificial intelligence? Luna could be developed also, but it has some severe shortages of materials needed for industrial production. Luna would need to recycle some materials with great efficiency and continue to import materials, perhaps from Mars. Developing industry first on Mars would make lunar development easier.

== The options we have ==
Technological progress in industry is an unavoidable consequence of human nature. It is as though we were riding along on a train. We can direct the train to arrive safely at its destination, or we can ignore the train and end up in a wreck. Before 1700 the majority of people of each country were farmers. By the year 1900 Europe and the United States had made considerable progress in urban living and manufacturing technology. At that time, if we had simply forgotten how to use steam power and all the factories had stopped, people could have all gone back to farming without many starving because of the transition. If the industrial economy were to stop today, billions could die from famine. We can choose from possible futures. Refusing to enter the future is not an option.

There are not many attractive solutions to this problem. Outer space based manufacturing with much larger access to materials and energy than Earth provides an attractive solution to aim at. Artificial intelligence is one of the areas of potential advance that could lead to the higher productivity that might be necessary to establish colonies off of Earth.

== References ==
<references/>

[[Category:Emerging Technology]]
[[Category:Settlements]]

Early warning system (solar radiation)

2013-10-25T07:22:11Z

Farred: fix typos

Like Earth, Mars has its own [[Lagrangian point]]s with the Sun. Currently there are no man-made satellites in <math>L_{1(Mars)}</math> or <math>L_{2(Mars)}</math> orbit, but it is conceivable that these islands of gravitational stability may be used to greatly benefit future Mars colonies.

==Early warning system for the onset of solar storms==
<div style="margin-left:10px;padding:5px 5px 5px 5px;float:right;width:160px;text-align:center;border:solid 1px #888888;background-color:#fff">
{|
|style="background-color:red;text-align:center"|
'''Danger''' 
Critical danger of acute solar radiation poisoning. '''Seek shelter immediately'''.
|-
|style="background-color:orange;text-align:center"|
'''Caution''' 
Caution recommended. Only travel unprotected for short periods of time.
|-
|style="background-color:green;text-align:center"|
'''Safe''' 
Minimal solar activity. Proceed with guarded caution. Have a good day :)
|}
'''A possible simple "flag" system to warn colonists of solar radiation levels'''
</div>

Instruments in the Earth-Sun <math>L_1</math> point already provide scientists on Earth with an '''early warning system''' to monitor [[:category:Space Weather|space weather]]. Probes such as ''SoHO'' and ''ACE'' receive solar ions approximately an hour before they impact the Earth's atmosphere.<ref>[http://www.astroengine.net/projects.php#svalbard Project: ''Solar Wind – Magnetospheric Interaction: Magnetic Storms and the Aurora'' (page 16), Ian J. O'Neill and Gareth P. Thomas, University Center on Svalbard (UNIS), April 2002]</ref> This not only provides excellent diagnostic data, but also gives advanced warning to companies and organizations that the Earth is 60 minutes away from experiencing an increase in [[solar radiation]]. Emergency procedures can be enacted accordingly, possibly saving delicate satellites and astronauts.

A simple, cost effective probe may be inserted into the Mars-Sun <math>L_1</math> point. This probe needn't be as sophisticated as ''SoHO'' or ''ACE'', it just needs to monitor the flux of energetic particles traveling toward Mars. Akin to a "flag" system on a patrolled beach (red for "dangerous", no swimming. Green for "safe", water is safe), Mars settlers could have advanced warning of an incoming [[CME]] from the Sun. If constantly measured by a particle detector on the probe at the <math>L_1</math> point, various stages of danger levels may be used to indicate to settlers unprotected on the surface of what severity of risk they are in. Surface "walkabouts" may be tightly restricted by such a system.

==Outstanding design issues==
===The Mars <math>L_1</math> time lag problem?===
The distance between Earth's <math>L_1</math> point (with the probes measuring solar particles) and the planet is approximately 1.5 million km. This provides information on the solar wind particles approximately 1 hour before they are received on Earth. Mars is a less massive planet than the Earth, therefore, Mars' <math>L_1</math> point will be closer to the planet than the Earth's.

Reaching a logical conclusion, assuming solar particles are traveling at the same velocity in near-Mars orbit as with near-Earth orbit, a Mars early warning system of the design outlined above will be less effective than the terrestrial version. So, how much time will the Mars early warning system provide to colonists from detection (at <math>L_1</math>) to impact (at Mars' surface)?

Using the equation from [[Lagrangian point]] calculations:

:<math>r \approx R \sqrt[3]{\frac{M_M}{3 M_S}}</math>

where <math>r</math> is the distance of <math>L_1</math> from Mars, <math>R</math> is the distance between the bodies and <math>M_M</math> and <math>M_S</math> are the masses of Mars and the Sun respectively.

Using R = 2.28 × 1011 meters, MM = 6.4191×1023 kg and MS = 1.98892×1030 kg, we arrive at a value of:

:<math>r \approx 1.08 \times 10^9</math> meters or 1.08 million km, 72% of the distance of Earth's 1.5 million km.

Now, keeping the assumption that it will approximately take solar ions 60 minutes to travel 1.5 million km (from Earth's <math>L_1</math> point to Earth), the time from <math>L_1</math> to Mars' surface = 60 × 72% = '''43.2 minutes'''.

Although 43 minutes is less than the warning time Earth-based solar wind probes are able to provide, this is not a great reduction in lag time, and would still greatly benefit the humans unprotected from solar radiation.

===References===
<references/>

[[category:concepts]]
[[category:Space Weather]]
[[category:essays]]

User talk:Farred

2013-10-24T00:09:50Z

Farred: Undo revision 14676 by Farred (Talk)

User talk:Farred

2013-10-24T00:05:09Z

Farred: note

Welcome to the flip side. :D - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 22:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:Happy to be here. Thanks. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
::I want to get a link to Mike Combs' space settlement FAQ to work, so I will try it here.
::Well, I tried it. It did not work. I removed it. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 04:56, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
How about that one: [http://space.mike-combs.com/spacsetl.htm#moon_mining Space settlement - What is there to mine on the moon?]? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 19:29, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
:I tried the new link put in by Spriditis. It works fine. It seems to me that links have a tendency to go bad with time. I think the link that I put in worked when I wrote it. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:20, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
::I used wiki tags [http://url_path url_title] - <nowiki>[http://url_path url_title]</nowiki>, You used just url.. maybe that was the case. -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 15:01, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
:::Thanks --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

== SPAM ==
Hi! I help [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] on Lunarpedia, and we've developed some tools and methods to help us deal with spam.

One thing that we do is set the "reason" for deleting a spam page to just "spam." If the original text of the spam remains in any form, it's possible that the spammer will get paid for it and come back and bring his spammer buds along.

I believe Strangelv has installed his WHUMP tool here, which will auto-delete spam on new pages and block the creator. We'll be tweaking the lists of words, since WHUMP was originally created for lpedia, a political wiki, but I'm sure it will help us keep the spam under control here. Please do tell us common "spam indicator" words that you see in the spam you delete.

[[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 16:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:I am happy to see anyone fight the spammers. When I delete a spam page there is automatically a string of text that shows up in the recent changes as the first few bytes of text as part of the reason for deleting the page. This string is only in recent changes and is only available as long as the recent changes is available. Do you want me to erase this string too? I do not delete according to a particular set of words. I check if the posting has a link advertising something that is not Mars or if the text advertises something that is not Mars. In a few of the cases a connection to Mars could have been made if the user had any interest in Mars, but since the user is just a computer program, there is no effort to refer to colonizing Mars. The post is spam and it's history. If I do notice good spam indicator words, I'll let you know. Thanks for being part of the good effort. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

::I wonder how many legitimate articles are uncategorized -- on LPedia (not connected to Marspedia, Lunarpedia et al. -- it's a political party wiki) that's been the most reliable source for identifying garbage articles as Brian Holtz categorized the last remaining uncategorized pages in the main namespace. Let me wake up enough to start collecting lists of articles to delete and feed into WHUMP. Ideally I'd like to delete the party that posted them originally, but I may chicken out and just have it delete the articles. As WHUMP is flagged as a bot, its activities are hidden by default. Click on 'Show Bots' on Recent Changes to see if it's done anything recently. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 22:14, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:::Done; just a blanket delete with no effort to hunt down and ban the original author -- after al[l, at least one of those might have started legitimately. Moving on to uncategorized pages. The situation here is a lot less bad than I'd assumed from the plea for help. Well, except for the classified as an attack page bit.

:::I'm having trouble getting WHUMP's actions to show up in RecentChanges even with Show Bots selected though. Wait, going back to default and then pressing show bots it works. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 22:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:::Have we run out of targets on Marspedia already? It may be time to move on to Exodictionary -- it's been getting slowly pummeled for awhile, although it may not be a large percentage as it has more articles than the rest of our wikis put together -- at least until I get Autostub1 working and crank out about 10,000 articles for Lunarpedia... -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 00:23, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
::::Congratulations, Strangelv, on getting WHUMP to work. I count 122 title only articles deleted. I did not hear about Marspedia being described as having an attack page. What is the trouble with an attack page? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 09:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

There are two sorts of SPAM: 
1. Manually inserted text, which seems not so frequent. 
2. New user accounts, obviously created by bot. Also, some exchange of whole paragraphs, probably carried out by bot. So, we need a better ''captcha'' to block the bots. Are you in contact with Dana Carson or Mike Delaney, who should be authorized to modify the wikimedia software? Strangelv may be in close contact with them. See also [[User talk:rfc#captcha code]]. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
:Well, I have been in contact with James Gholston and some others about the spam situation. I think people are doing as much as seems reasonable with captcha and automated spam removal. The spammers just seem to have some way of getting around the captcha with little effort. It may involve a work at home scam by which they con numerous poor people into doing their spamming. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

== [http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?client=tmpg&hl=ru&langpair=ru|en&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&u=http://inocont.net/&usg=ALkJrhi0tZ8DczDS3kY5_KeoktduNAaPFw InoCont] ==

Dear Farred! Thank you for your participation in the development of [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept|the concept of "InoCont"]] and the editorial work you are doing in this area.

As you know, the international scientific and creative program "Another Contin(g)ent» (www.inocont.net) is developing nearly 4 years, and our aims are to unite creative people of all countries to search for a vector of future discoveries and achievements in all spheres of activity both in space and on Earth. This is - a call for co-organizing an international experiment in the creation and testing of complex models of life and infrastructure of autonomous planetary settlements (APS).

Extended abstract concepts in the English language is available on the Marspedia (http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Another_Contin%28g%29ent_Concept ).

Most likely, you will see that our initiative is still evolving without external funding, receives no government support and investment, and relies solely on personal savings and the enthusiasm of volunteers.

We all believe that in an increasingly globalizing world, experiential understanding of the phenomenon of autonomy is necessary for regeneration of new socially significant meanings. This will not only introduce new ideas to solve the problem of initial survival, but also will open up innovative approaches in the development.

The "InoСont" Program relies on the principle of "from the complex – to a simple", which means the union of all the inhabitants of Earth in search of solutions for large-scale social settlements on the Moon, Mars and other objects in the solar system. It is able to rethink the problems of life on Earth and to strengthen the fundamental-project basis for innovative development.

For this paradoxal purpose we develop a unique methodology for forecasting design (FutureDesign) of socio-technological imperatives of development, which will focus on intermediate contests. The first one is planned under the title "UniCont" under the "Cultural Universiade-2013" during the XXVII Summer World Student Games in Kazan, Russia.

We believe that the development of the niche free competition will be extremely attractive to investors today. The Program provides competitive to attract investments for the implementation of the startups.

Development of information and the methodological basis of the experiment will focus on network semantic design, business-project games, musical improvization, simulations in virtual worlds and the creation of full-scale APS’ prototype architectural and engineering controls, etc. The achievement of high-level design specifications (and this is - more than half of the success of any innovation) will contribute to broad interdisciplinary projects and their testing in difficult climatic conditions of the Arctic, underwater, underground and other extreme environments.

Example of APS can become a good practice, working on a team project based on your scientific and cultural interests: that is suitable for extreme conditions, will be effective for milder conditions of the Earth.

All this requires special support from society and business, liders of culture, high-quality new partners.

Please help the program "InoСont" by your tremendous experience and recommendations, well-aimed advice to colleagues and students.

I would be happy personal acquaintance with you and fruitful cooperation.

I wish you good health and all good things of life

''Nazym F. Sayfullin, Chairman of the "Planetonautics" Section, Moscow Society of Naturalists (founded in 1805)''

Welcome to Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/groups/inocont/

--[[User:PPark|PPark]] 10:09, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
:To Nazym F. Sayfullin:
::My efforts with the <nowiki>[[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]] article were not undertaken on behalf of InoCont. It is my duty and my privilege as a guest administrator on Marspedia too serve the interest of Marspedia, which is the interest of THE MARS SOCIETY. I see no evidence that InoCont is a legal person capable of owning copyrights. I see no indication that Inocont is anything more than the creation of Nazym F. Sayfullin or PPark. The quality of the material posted by PPark does not suggest scholarly effort. It seems that the intent of Marspedia has been to give contributors a chance to bring their work up to a quality that reflects well upon Marspedia. So I have been trying to improve [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]]</nowiki> in hope that you get the idea that unfamiliarity with the English language is not an excuse for posting extensive amounts rambling disjointed prose on Marspedia. Claims of official positions with societies do not merit any special consideration on Marspedia unless they can be substantiated by officials of THE MARS SOCIETY. So far I have not had any indication that THE MARS SOCIETY has any interest in promoting InoCont or its program. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:43, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

==Contribution copyright status==
You've made contributions to Marspedia between 1 January and 20 June 2012, a period where there is a problem with the rules for the main namespace, specifically [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]], [[Coronal Mass Ejections]], and [[Foundation of an Autonomous Colony]]. Do you officially allow your contributions to be released to the public domain? ...And by any chance are you the one who contributed anonymously to [[Autonomous planetary settlement]] from 174.31.99.237? Otherwise we may need to revert those helpful edits.-- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 02:17, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
:I officially allow my contributions to Marspedia to be released to public domain. It seems likely that the contribution from 174.31.99.237 was mine also, but I have no control over the IP addresses that are assigned to me, and I have kept no record. I just reverted that contribution and replaced it with one listed to my Marspedia name. I hope this is helpful. I can make further clean-up edits to <nowiki>[[Autonomous planetary settlement]]</nowiki> if I find the time. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:47, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

==To do==
The edit by user:123.115.107.183 on the 16th of July to the Talk:Discussion page related Cnc (computer numerical control) machining to considerations for Earthly use, but CNC machining would be a good compliment to forging on Mars too. It is possible that this IP address editor was making a good faith effort to contribute to the discussion of Mars colonization, but the edit was not in the proper place to be appreciated. I hope to add something about CNC machining when I can do it well and in the proper place. It is somewhat related to [[Colonization strategy]]. I have got [[Talk:Teraforming]] and other things to consider. Too much to do. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:38, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:Something Rose and I noticed a month or so ago was that some of the article-damaging attacks were using an AI that made text that read very much like it was on topic. The only way it was unambigous that it wasn't an attempt at a legitimate contribution was because it was deleting pre-existing content a section at a time, consistent with a common attack strategy.

:Fortunately, the main attackers singling out Marspedia are running low on non-blocked IP addresses. At least the ones who aren't creating garbage accounts and little else...

:--[[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 01:47, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

fix <nowiki>[[Outgassing]] definition; review [[Economic Systems and their Relation to a Mars Colony]]</nowiki> - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 01:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

==Deletion reasons:==
*unused file form unknown source with unknown copyright status

*unused non-English file with unknown copyright status
- [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

==Technical Difficulties==
What exactly goes wrong when you edit and what do I need to do to duplicate the problem on my end? -- [[Special:Contributions/173.74.208.113|173.74.208.113]] 06:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I suppose messaging might work better if I'd remember to log in first, which reminds me of another problem I've been baffled by: why WHUMP is no longer able to log into here. I get this error message:

the high score is 670
Starting check for site http://marspedia.org
Logging In
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/[SNIP path]/WHUMP_M814_1247_marsp.py", line 192, in <module>
BR.select_form(name="userlogin")
File "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/mechanize/_mechanize.py", line 530, in select_form
raise FormNotFoundError("no form matching "+description)
mechanize._mechanize.FormNotFoundError: no form matching name 'userlogin'

...And I've been unable to figure out why. It was working before and only breaks for this wiki out of the five I'm presently running or trying to run [[User:WHUMP|WHUMP]] on.

Okay, I just hit preview and fot a page full of hyperlinks that are definitely not wanted. The background graphics were intact, and I belivee the text was over the graphics. Is this the problem you're running into? I'm still not sure how it could be caused. ...unless this is something in addition to what you're running into and it's happened since the last time I looked...

Interestingly, Firefox's built in spell checker isn't working right now as I type this.

There it goes again. First the links, then the template, and the links are under the graphics and a few DIVs that are part of the template.

hmm.

-- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 06:17, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

WHUMP's last ban here was 7 August, which may correspond to the problem unless it corresponds to my disk trouble that took my workstation offline for 2-3 weeks (doesn't look like it). When did the page full of garge links problem start? -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 06:36, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I've replaced the main directory's non-data php files with a set copied from exodictionary and am attempting to reproduce the problem. I'm not succeeding. Maybe this has been going on longer than I suspected?

Bonus: WHUMP is now able to log in again! -- so if the problem has been around since at least May (going by the date stamps on the files before I overwrote them, which is the date the attack I knew about was removed), why did it not become a problem for WHUMP until August? -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 07:01, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
:From your message it seems that you have found the problem that I mentioned on your talk page at Lunarpedia on the 17th of August. The symptoms you describe are consistent with what I see, but I do not notice the problems with WHUMP or Firefox because I do not run these programs. A possibility that I can guess at for staged symptoms is that at one point an attacker got access to the system and later by using that access found a place to make alterations that caused present symptoms. That is as close as I can come to being helpful. I no nothing in particular about programming wikis or setting them up. Good luck. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 10:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
::I hope the problem is fixed now. I did not see the spam links filling the screen when I edited my talk page last. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 10:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
:::On the Recent Changes page click on the Show Bots link to see what WHUMP has been up to lately. 8) -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 11:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
::::Good work! - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:20, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

==whoops==
Yes, I agree that anonymous people should not be allowed to crap up Marspedia. If we force them to create an account, that discourages a lot of spam right there. If they actually create an account and log in, it's far easier to get rid of all their crap; JamesG has a script to help mechanize spam removal. [[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 20:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

==more SPAM==
Yes, I agree that anonymous people should not be allowed to crap up Marspedia. If we force them to create an account, that discourages a lot of spam right there. If they actually create an account and log in, it's far easier to get rid of all their crap; JamesG has a script to help mechanize spam removal. [[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 19:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

:I have to disagree: the anonymous attacks expose their IP addresses and we can deal with them for however long we need to (180 days almost always works): they run out of IP addresses and can't attack anymore until they get new ones -- and then those get banned for 180 days too. When they create accounts they're protected: they can create new accounts continuously, and the longest the IP gets blocked is 24 hours. Give me anonymous IP attacks any day. It's the account-creating attacks that are a problem. If we want to get desperate, blocking account creation would go a lot further towards bringing the situation under control. The [[User:WHUMP|WHUMP]] script is running as I type and has been for quite awhile. I haven't thought of an algorithm for detecting damaging attacks to existing articles (so WHEMP automatically ignores such attacks), but I believe the Bad Behavior extension can help deal with those if we install it. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 20:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

::I replied on Miros1's talk page before seeing Strangelv's comment too. As to blocking IP addresses, I am not sure it does any good. I have checked for deleted contributions from IPs when removing their SPAM and only a couple of times have I found any. In those cases I blocked the IP. It may be that there is some other way of spoofing the system to give multiple IP addresses to one user than using a bot-net; or there may be so many zombie addresses available that the spammer never needs to use one twice. I am certain that I have never seen an over 180 day old deleted contribution listed to an IP. I will mention here too that I suspect a virus in my e-mail account. So I will try not to pass it along as we do what we can. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
::Now I see that undone contributions do not show up as deleted contributions on Marspedia like they do on Wikipedia. That makes things different than I suspected. I will start blocking IP address spammers more. Changing deleted contributions to include undone contributions might be more trouble than it is worth. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

==Featured article==
How do you think about [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk%3AMain_Page&diff=7767&oldid=7489 this proposal]? Problem is, I do not have permission to do it myself. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:50, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
:Whatever article you think would be good as a featured article is likely to be an improvement over leaving the same featured article for years. I have no experience in changing featured articles. I was just given administrator powers when there was a rash of vandalism to the wiki so I could help with that, but I have little technical knowledge about how a wiki is managed. People who disagree with your choice have every opportunity to voice there opinions. I have seen no objections to your proposal so far. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:01, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
All you need is to edit [[Template:Featured article]]. You may just copy parts of the selected article into there, and that is that. I have not the permission to do it, that is why I am asking you. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 21:07, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I have created a draft [[Template:Featured article draft|here]]. Could you please have a look and, may be after some enhancement or not, put it in [[Template:Featured article|there]] in order to make it appear on the main page? Thanks.

One more thing: Sorry for writing onto you user's page. I am going to move all the discussion stuff to your talk page, and I hope this is okay with you. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 14:50, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

:Thanks for moving the talk to my talk page. I was thinking I would get around to it sooner or later. I did see your edit on my user page and on <nowiki>[[Talk:Equipment for autonomous growth]]</nowiki> earlier but was still considering how to respond when I had the time. You have made it so easy for me now that I will first edit the featured article template and see what happens, second get back to autonomous growth later. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:34, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

==Sorry==
Note to self: never again edit Marspedia just because you think the medicine has worn off. I ''really'' messed that [[semimajor axis]] article up. Sorry. [[User:ChristiaanK|ChristiaanK]] 04:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

== user Rfc is blocked ==

Is blocking a proper mitigation for the massive bot attacks? We had better enhance the captcha, because our captcha works really poor. Obviously, the bots have no problem in dealing with our captcha. -- Rfc
:I recently finished 142 actions of blocking, deleting, and undoing the actions of spammers and vandals. I spent two hours and one minute doing that. I also unblocked Rfc. User:Strangelv, our local bureaucrat, changed the new account requirements at Lunarpedia to require requesting an account to get one. That helped. I suppose he could do the same for Marspedia. I will ask. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:07, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
::What was done to reduce spam at Lunarpedia does not seem appropriate for Marspedia. If Whump just keeps working as planned, it is not too much trouble. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
:Whump blocked you 22 minutes after you last recorded edit. I see nothing in that edit that should have attracted Whump's notice. Whump does not seem to have been doing it's standard job since then either. Perhaps it was altered. Something should be fixed. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! You are doing a great job here! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
== New User ==
Pete9804 has started making edits. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:24, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Check User:MicaelaPWJR and website: <nowiki>[http://mensajesmagneticosdescargar.blogspot.com/ mensajes magneticos descargar gratis]</nowiki>

Artificial intelligence, automated industry and colonizing Mars

2013-10-22T07:30:25Z

Farred: addition

{{Controversial}}
== Defining artificial intelligence ==
The sort of artificial intelligence<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence artificial intelligence]</ref> relevant to starting a colony on Mars is not the same type as human intelligence, such as the computer, HAL 9000, in the movie ''2001: A Space Odyssey''.<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001:_A_Space_Odyssey_(film) ''2001: A Space Odyssey'' at Wikipedia]</ref> What is needed is the kind of computer program that runs numerical control machining<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_numerical_control Numerical control at Wikipedia]</ref> and industrial processes. The ability to mine ice and minerals and haul them back to the factory would include techniques developed for computer-driven cars.<ref>[http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2010/10/11/google_road_testing_computer_driven_cars/ computer-driven cars]</ref> Such an artificial intelligence would not need to talk with natural language but would be more like the expert systems doctors use to help them diagnose diseases. Talking would not be part of the computer's job and would be undesirable. An artificial intelligence should be expected to do specific things that it is programmed to do better than a human being, as the chess playing computer, Deep Blue,<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_(chess_computer) ''Deep Blue (chess computer)'' at Wikipedia]</ref> did. An artificial intelligence may struggle at some things for which human judgment is beneficial. A chess playing computer has no feeling of joy for victory or sorrow for defeat. It is just as unconcerned if programmed to play poorly and loose most games as it is if programmed to win as much as possible. This lack of feelings makes a chess playing computer useful as a learning tool with a different roll than a human opponent. According to the introduction of ''Advanced Automation for Space Missions''<ref>[https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Advanced_Automation_for_Space_Missions/Chapter_1#Preface ''Advanced Automation for Space Missions'']</ref> machine intelligence has been used prove theorems, assemble machines with robotic manipulators, solve differential equations and write computer programs as well as the previously mentioned tasks.

== A lesson from ants ==
There is good reason to believe that people can design a partially self replicating industrial system for Mars along with the artificial intelligence to run it following instructions it receives from Earth after every eight hour shift of Earth bound controllers. There are ants about three hundredths of an inch from end to end that none the less pack sufficient data processing power in their tiny heads to forage all about a human kitchen, find the cookie jar, suck the grease and sugar out of the chocolate chip cookies and return to their nest in wavering curving lines stretching over more than ten feet. They find a supply of water somewhere too, probably by digging into the dirt under the house's foundation. The task for an artificial intelligence running a partially self-replicating industry on Mars might be more complicated in raw processing power, perhaps ten times, perhaps a hundred times more complicated. People have powerful enough computers sitting on their desk tops. The things that are lacking are the programming and the design of the industrial task. These two must be built together as nature built the programming and the task of the ant together. People have an advantage over nature. We can see the final goal and design for that without going through all of the evolutionary steps along the way.

== The challenge of the future ==
Colonizing Mars brings the task of advanced artificial intelligence controlled [[Automation|automated]] production to humanity while people still have a chance to successfully meet the economic challenge that goes along with it. If we put this off until the far future, it might kill us. We do not need this kind of advance in automation on Earth today because the economic problem is to distribute the fruits of production to those involved in the production. More people involved in production simplifies this task. The wealth we produce must be kept flowing like the sap in a tree, or the tree dies. That is a consequence of our current industrial economy which we must live with. The potential of automated manufacturing for producing goods without much input of labor could be too big of a change for Earth to adapt to. In outer space this advance could be helpful and might be necessary. When the technology gradually seeps back to Earth causing unemployment, the space habitats could be ready and waiting for the children of Earth looking for new homes. Space habitats could be flipping out of their factories like flap jacks, loading up with people and sailing off into the sunshine. The expanding economy resulting from people emigrating to outer space could soak up the increased productive power which otherwise might constipate the whole system. Mars is an ideal place for this to begin. People have written arguments like: " No significant fraction of Earth’s population will ever physically move off this planet." as if it were a statement from God and we must believe. In truth, there are physically possible means of transporting billions of people off of Earth.<ref>[http://www.lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Eddy_Current_Brake_to_Orbit ''Eddy Current Brake to Orbit'' at Lunarpedia]</ref> The doubt is about whether or not people will have the political will and economic strength to make use of some of these possibilities.

== Alternative industrial development ==
Why not send people to run industry rather than an artificial intelligence? People are very useful for controlling industry. Their intelligence is already demonstrated and does not need to be artificially programmed. However, people eat much food. They require drinking water, air and a host of special accommodations that are expensive to provide on Mars. People should run the industry on Mars but only after it has first been established by automatic machinery under control of an artificial intelligence directed from Earth. When the infrastructure is developed to support people, that is the time for people to arrive on Mars. Since industrial production on Mars will provide the recycling of air and water for people which is provided by nature on Earth, the ratio of industrial production per person will need to be higher than it is today on Earth. If people do not develop artificial intelligence as required to run an industry on Mars with only executive level instructions from Earth, the alternative of having people on Mars from day one of the colony is an expense to deal with in some other way.

Why not develop the Earth's moon which is closer and does not need this artificial intelligence? Luna could be developed also, but it has some severe shortages of materials needed for industrial production. Luna would need to recycle some materials with great efficiency and continue to import materials, perhaps from Mars. Developing industry first on Mars would make lunar development easier.

== The options we have ==
Technological progress in industry is an unavoidable consequence of human nature. It is as though we were riding along on a train. We can direct the train to arrive safely at its destination, or we can ignore the train and end up in a wreck. Before 1700 the majority of people of each country were farmers. By the year 1900 Europe and the United States had made considerable progress in urban living and manufacturing technology. At that time, if we had simply forgotten how to use steam power and all the factories had stopped, people could have all gone back to farming without many starving because of the transition. If the industrial economy were to stop today, billions could die from famine. We can choose from possible futures. Refusing to enter the future is not an option.

There are not many attractive solutions to this problem. Outer space based manufacturing with much larger access to materials and energy than Earth provides an attractive solution to aim at. Artificial intelligence is one of the potential advances that could lead to higher productivity, and it might be necessary.

== References ==
<references/>

[[Category:Emerging Technology]]
[[Category:Settlements]]

Artificial intelligence, automated industry and colonizing Mars

2013-10-21T17:45:25Z

Farred: addition

{{Controversial}}
== Defining artificial intelligence ==
The sort of artificial intelligence<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence artificial intelligence]</ref> relevant to starting a colony on Mars is not the same type as human intelligence, such as the computer, HAL 9000, in the movie ''2001: A Space Odyssey''.<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001:_A_Space_Odyssey_(film) ''2001: A Space Odyssey'' at Wikipedia]</ref> What is needed is the kind of computer program that runs numerical control machining<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_numerical_control Numerical control at Wikipedia]</ref> and industrial processes. The ability to mine ice and minerals and haul them back to the factory would include techniques developed for computer-driven cars.<ref>[http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2010/10/11/google_road_testing_computer_driven_cars/ computer-driven cars]</ref> Such an artificial intelligence would not need to talk with natural language but would be more like the expert systems doctors use to help them diagnose diseases. Talking would not be part of the computer's job and would be undesirable. An artificial intelligence should be expected to do specific things that it is programmed to do better than a human being, as the chess playing computer, Deep Blue,<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_(chess_computer) ''Deep Blue (chess computer)'' at Wikipedia]</ref> did. An artificial intelligence may struggle at some things for which human judgment is beneficial. A chess playing computer has no feeling of joy for victory or sorrow for defeat. It is just as unconcerned if programmed to play poorly and loose most games as it is if programmed to win as much as possible. This lack of feelings makes a chess playing computer useful as a learning tool with a different roll than a human opponent. According to the introduction of ''Advanced Automation for Space Missions''<ref>[https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Advanced_Automation_for_Space_Missions/Chapter_1#Preface ''Advanced Automation for Space Missions'']</ref> machine intelligence has been used prove theorems, assemble machines with robotic manipulators, solve differential equations and write computer programs as well as the previously mentioned tasks.

== A lesson from ants ==
There is good reason to believe that people can design a partially self replicating industrial system for Mars along with the artificial intelligence to run it following instructions it receives from Earth after every eight hour shift of Earth bound controllers. There are ants about three hundredths of an inch from end to end that none the less pack sufficient data processing power in their tiny heads to forage all about a human kitchen, find the cookie jar, suck the grease and sugar out of the chocolate chip cookies and return to their nest in wavering curving lines stretching over more than ten feet. They find a supply of water somewhere too, probably by digging into the dirt under the house's foundation. The task for an artificial intelligence running a partially self-replicating industry on Mars might be more complicated in raw processing power, perhaps ten times, perhaps a hundred times more complicated. People have powerful enough computers sitting on their desk tops. The things that are lacking are the programming and the design of the industrial task. These two must be built together as nature built the programming and the task of the ant together. People have an advantage over nature. We can see the final goal and design for that without going through all of the evolutionary steps along the way.

== The challenge of the future ==
Colonizing Mars brings the task of advanced artificial intelligence controlled [[Automation|automated]] production to humanity while people still have a chance to successfully meet the economic challenge that goes along with it. If we put this off until the far future, it might kill us. We do not need this kind of advance in automation on Earth today because the economic problem is to distribute the fruits of production to those involved in the production. More people involved in production simplifies this task. The wealth we produce must be kept flowing like the sap in a tree, or the tree dies. That is a consequence of our current industrial economy which we must live with. The potential of automated manufacturing for producing goods without much input of labor could be too big of a change for Earth to adapt to. In outer space this advance could be helpful and might be necessary. When the technology gradually seeps back to Earth causing unemployment, the space habitats could be ready and waiting for the children of Earth looking for new homes. Space habitats could be flipping out of their factories like flap jacks, loading up with people and sailing off into the sunshine. The expanding economy resulting from people emigrating to outer space could soak up the increased productive power which otherwise might constipate the whole system. Mars is an ideal place for this to begin.

== Alternative industrial development ==
Why not send people to run industry rather than an artificial intelligence? People are very useful for controlling industry. Their intelligence is already demonstrated and does not need to be artificially programmed. However, people eat much food. They require drinking water, air and a host of special accommodations that are expensive to provide on Mars. People should run the industry on Mars but only after it has first been established by automatic machinery under control of an artificial intelligence directed from Earth. When the infrastructure is developed to support people, that is the time for people to arrive on Mars. Since industrial production on Mars will provide the recycling of air and water for people which is provided by nature on Earth, the ratio of industrial production per person will need to be higher than it is today on Earth. If people do not develop artificial intelligence as required to run an industry on Mars with only executive level instructions from Earth, the alternative of having people on Mars from day one of the colony is an expense to deal with in some other way.

Why not develop the Earth's moon which is closer and does not need this artificial intelligence? Luna could be developed also, but it has some severe shortages of materials needed for industrial production. Luna would need to recycle some materials with great efficiency and continue to import materials, perhaps from Mars. Developing industry first on Mars would make lunar development easier.

== The options we have ==
Technological progress in industry is an unavoidable consequence of human nature. It is as though we were riding along on a train. We can direct the train to arrive safely at its destination, or we can ignore the train and end up in a wreck. Before 1700 the majority of people of each country were farmers. By the year 1900 Europe and the United States had made considerable progress in urban living and manufacturing technology. At that time, if we had simply forgotten how to use steam power and all the factories had stopped, people could have all gone back to farming without many starving because of the transition. If the industrial economy were to stop today, billions could die from famine. We can choose from possible futures. Refusing to enter the future is not an option.

There are not many attractive solutions to this problem. Outer space based manufacturing with much larger access to materials and energy than Earth provides an attractive solution to aim at. Artificial intelligence is one of the potential advances that could lead to higher productivity, and it might be necessary.

== References ==
<references/>

[[Category:Emerging Technology]]
[[Category:Settlements]]

Talk:Meteorites

2013-10-18T21:44:18Z

Farred: and also

== Broken citation ==
The reference to astroengine.net gives me error 404 when logged in and a request for user name and password when not logged in.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 15:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

== Do not exaggerate the meteor danger ==
A two millimeter meteoroid is a deadly bullet on Earth's moon, but not on Mars.

Scale height for Mars = about 11 km (See: [http://davidaroffman.com/photo6.html SCALE HEIGHTS AND MARS PRESSURE TRANSDUCER ERRORS]) but it varies with temperature.

On Earth the scale height is 8.5 km at 17 C, 8.0 km at 0 C, 7.6 km at - 13 C.

Meteoroids start burning up from atmospheric friction at about 80 km on Earth, where the pressure is about 1 E-4 atmospheres or about 100th the atmospheric density for the surface of Mars. So meteoroids would start burning up at about 50 km altitude on Mars. My guess is that a 4 millimeter meteorite would bounce off a space suit of a person on Mars. A two centimeter diameter meteoroid would be somewhat diminished in size and greatly slowed by the time it hit the Martian surface. My guess is that a solar heated greenhouse would have to sit on Mars for a hundred million years before a meteor would smash it to rubble in one blow. In the mean time replacement of broken glass panes should handle the meteoroid problem without any regolith shielding. An emergency glass repair robot should be able to function even as the ambient pressure goes down. The plants might not even die.

So far there has been no evidence of any of the Mars rovers being hit by a meteorite. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:39, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Meteorites

2013-10-18T21:39:51Z

Farred: Do not exaggerate

== Broken citation ==
The reference to astroengine.net gives me error 404 when logged in and a request for user name and password when not logged in.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 15:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

== Do not exaggerate the meteor danger ==
A two millimeter meteoroid is a deadly bullet on Earth's moon, but not on Mars.

Scale height for Mars = about 11 km (See: [http://davidaroffman.com/photo6.html SCALE HEIGHTS AND MARS PRESSURE TRANSDUCER ERRORS]) but it varies with temperature.

On Earth the scale height is 8.5 km at 17 C, 8.0 km at 0 C, 7.6 km at - 13 C.

Meteoroids start burning up from atmospheric friction at about 80 km on Earth, where the pressure is about 1 E-4 atmospheres or about 100th the atmospheric density for the surface of Mars. So meteoroids would start burning up at about 50 km altitude on Mars. My guess is that a 4 millimeter meteorite would bounce off a space suit of a person on Mars. A two centimeter diameter meteoroid would be somewhat diminished in size and greatly slowed by the time it hit the Martian surface. My guess is that a solar heated greenhouse would have to sit on Mars for a hundred million years before a meteor would smash it to rubble in one blow. In the mean time replacement of broken glass panes should handle the meteoroid problem without any regolith shielding. An emergency glass repair robot should be able to function even as the ambient pressure goes down. The plants might not even die. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:39, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Meteorites

2013-10-18T20:09:25Z

Farred: often ==> frequent, replace adverb with adjective

==Definition==

A '''meteorite''' is a body of space debris that enters the atmosphere of a planet and survives the friction with surrounding atmospheric gases to impact the surface energetically. Impact causes planetary [[crater|cratering]], ejecta and dust (forming a layer of [[regolith]] on planets with low geological activity such as Mars). This poses an obvious risk to a Martian [[settlement]], and due to the tenuous [[atmosphere]] of [[Mars]], smaller debris have the greater chance to impact the surface.

==Risk and Mitigations==

Small meteoroids are best handled by a thick layer or [[regolith]]. [[Mars One]] plans to cover the inflatable [[greenhouse]]s with at least 2 meters of it. Most meteoroids are small ones. Also, [[self-healing puncture protection]] for [[space suit]]s and [[house]]s should be installed.

Bigger meteoroids are not so frequent, but they can happen. Meteoroids of the size of a few centimeters are absolutely fatal. Nothings can be done to fend them off. The kinetic [[energy]] is way too much.

And yet, there are possible precautions. One is to modularize the settlement with [[fail-safe|redundant]] facilities on different places. In the case of a hit, the affected module may be destroyed, but the remaining parts allow the surviving settlers to continue the colonization.

For even bigger impacts the needed distances between the redundant modules must be larger. When the settlement reaches 20 persons, a second settlement may be built, dividing the colony in two parts, with a distance of a few hundred meters. Those two settlements should be equipped to work independently from each other, but cables and pipes between them help to support each other in emergency situations, e.g. to supply [[oxygen]] and [[electricity]]. A [[railroad]] between them allows material and person transport.

==Observations of Meteorite Impacts on Mars==

[[Image:Moc_impact.jpg|thumb|right|300px|[[Mars Global Surveyor]] images of the same site in 1999 and 2006 - Impact from meteorite is obvious.]]

On January 9, 2006 the [[Mars Global Surveyor]] MOC science operations team came to the realization that their camera (used primarily to map the Martian surface) may be able to locate and characterize fresh impact craters on the surface of Mars. Such a survey would provide useful information about the current meteorite impact rate. This survey would be the first of its kind ever carried out on a Solar System body (including the Earth-Moon system) due to the unprecedented number of high resolution cameras inserted into Mars orbit.<ref>Go to: [http://wayback.archive.org/ WayBackMachine]. Enter: <nowiki>[http://www.astroengine.net/article.php?id_art=36]</nowiki>. Chose the 9th day of June 2007.</ref>

In results gathered on January 6, 2006, the MOC had acquired a new feature on the Martian surface in [[Arabia Terra]] in one of its images. The feature was circular and very dark. At the time, the camera was capturing images at a resolution of 240 meters/pixel, so there were some ambiguities as to what the blurred feature was. The team began exploring the possible scenarios, but after proving shadows of the two moons, [[Phobos]] and [[Deimos]] were not to blame, they quickly realized that something in the area was new when compared with images taken by [[Mariner 9]] (in 1971) through to the [[Mars Express]] mission (in 2003). There was still the possibility that the dark circular object may have been caused by the removal of [[sand]] and [[dust storms|dust]] due to high winds in the region so better observations had to be carried out.

To increase the resolution in the images, a technique known as Roll-Only Targeted Observation (ROTO) was employed. This massively improved the images for analysis, the new resolution registered at 1.5 meters/pixel allowing the team to see the main impact crater and several smaller craters arcing away from the large dark spot. Another observational technique – compensated Pitch and Roll Observation (cPROTO) – was used to improve the images further until the evidence was indisputable. A fresh impact crater had been discovered.

[[Mars Odyssey]]'s THEMIS instrument and [[Mars Express]]' High Resolution Camera (HRSC) were able to provide supplementary observations of the area to constrain the impact date to some time between November 12, 2004 and January 6, 2006. Since this first discovery in January 6, 2006, another 20 new impact craters have been discovered by the MOC.

==Open issues==
*What is the size and frequency of meteorites on Mars?
*What is the probability for a [[human]] body to be hit by a meteorite on Mars in an hour?

==See also==
*[[Meteors]]
*[[Meteoric iron]]

==References==
<references/>

{{SettlementIndex}}

[[category:Hazards]]

Recent Liquid Flow on Mars

2013-10-16T15:51:14Z

Farred: tweak

== Recent liquid flow on Mars? ==
Photographs of Hebes Chasma were recently published<ref>[http://spacefellowship.com/news/art35520/martian-scars.html "Martian scars" at SPACE FELLOWSHIP]</ref> which show considerable resemblance to liquid flow features. The dark stains seem to show something that "pool[ed] like spilt ink". Commentator(s) bent over backwards trying to not seem to be guilty of sensationalism. The stains were suggested to be probably dust movement that produced a "flow-like feature". There is a possibility that wind can become heavily laden with dust and flow downwards to leave the dust collected in a broad flat pool, but the images in this case make that explanation seem unlikely. The possibility of a petroleum seep suggests itself but the flow pattern that would result in the actual images is hard to imagine. Perhaps some unknown dense gas of volcanic origin collected in Hebes Chasma and then condensed as dew on the surfaces that cooled the most by radiation. This dew then slowly drained from those surfaces into inky pools in deep depressions in the eastern and central parts of Hebes Chasma. If there is a liquid on Mars of petroleum nature, it could be an advantage for colonization efforts some day.

== Reference ==
<references/>

[[Category:Geology]]

Recent Liquid Flow on Mars

2013-10-16T08:28:02Z

Farred: Recent liquid flow on Mars?

== Recent liquid flow on Mars? ==
Photographs of Hebes Chasma were recently published<ref>[http://spacefellowship.com/news/art35520/martian-scars.html "Martian scars" at SPACE FELLOWSHIP]</ref> which show considerable resemblance to liquid flow features. The dark stains seem to show something that "pool[ed] like spilt ink". Commentator(s) bent over backwards trying to not seem to be guilty of sensationalism. The stains were suggested to be probably dust movement that produced a "flow-like feature". There is a possibility that wind can become heavily laden with dust and flow downwards to leave the dust collected in a broad flat pool, but the images in this case make that explanation seem unlikely. The possibility of a petroleum seep suggests itself but the flow pattern that would result in the actual images is hard to imagine. Perhaps some unknown gas of volcanic origin collected in Hebes Chasma and then condensed as dew on the surfaces that cooled the most by radiation. This dew then slowly drained from those surfaces into inky pools in deep depressions in the eastern and central parts of Hebes Chasma. If there is a liquid on Mars of petroleum nature, it could be an advantage for colonization efforts some day.

== Reference ==
<references/>

[[Category:Geology]]

Meteorites

2013-10-12T09:03:44Z

Farred: restore reference

==Definition==

A '''meteorite''' is a body of space debris that enters the atmosphere of a planet and survives the friction with surrounding atmospheric gases to impact the surface energetically. Impact causes planetary [[crater|cratering]], ejecta and dust (forming a layer of [[regolith]] on planets with low geological activity such as Mars). This poses an obvious risk to life on the surface of [[Earth]], but due to the tenuous atmosphere of [[Mars]], smaller debris have the greater chance to impact the Martian surface. Therefore, [[self-healing puncture protection]] for [[space suit]]s and [[house]]s should be installed.

==Observations of Meteorite Impacts on Mars==

[[Image:Moc_impact.jpg|thumb|right|300px|[[Mars Global Surveyor]] images of the same site in 1999 and 2006 - Impact from meteorite is obvious.]]

On January 9, 2006 the [[Mars Global Surveyor]] MOC science operations team came to the realization that their camera (used primarily to map the Martian surface) may be able to locate and characterize fresh impact craters on the surface of Mars. Such a survey would provide useful information about the current meteorite impact rate. This survey would be the first of its kind ever carried out on a Solar System body (including the Earth-Moon system) due to the unprecedented number of high resolution cameras inserted into Mars orbit.<ref>Go to: [http://wayback.archive.org/ WayBackMachine]. Enter: <nowiki>[http://www.astroengine.net/article.php?id_art=36]</nowiki>. Chose the 9th day of June 2007.</ref>

In results gathered on January 6, 2006, the MOC had acquired a new feature on the Martian surface in [[Arabia Terra]] in one of its images. The feature was circular and very dark. At the time, the camera was capturing images at a resolution of 240 meters/pixel, so there were some ambiguities as to what the blurred feature was. The team began exploring the possible scenarios, but after proving shadows of the two moons, [[Phobos]] and [[Deimos]] were not to blame, they quickly realized that something in the area was new when compared with images taken by [[Mariner 9]] (in 1971) through to the [[Mars Express]] mission (in 2003). There was still the possibility that the dark circular object may have been caused by the removal of [[sand]] and [[dust storms|dust]] due to high winds in the region so better observations had to be carried out.

To increase the resolution in the images, a technique known as Roll-Only Targeted Observation (ROTO) was employed. This massively improved the images for analysis, the new resolution registered at 1.5 meters/pixel allowing the team to see the main impact crater and several smaller craters arcing away from the large dark spot. Another observational technique – compensated Pitch and Roll Observation (cPROTO) – was used to improve the images further until the evidence was indisputable. A fresh impact crater had been discovered.

[[Mars Odyssey]]'s THEMIS instrument and [[Mars Express]]' High Resolution Camera (HRSC) were able to provide supplementary observations of the area to constrain the impact date to some time between November 12, 2004 and January 6, 2006. Since this first discovery in January 6, 2006, another 20 new impact craters have been discovered by the MOC.

==Open issues==
*What is the size and frequency of meteorites on Mars?
*What is the probability for a [[human]] body to be hit by a meteorite on Mars in an hour?

==See also==
*[[Meteors]]
*[[Meteoric iron]]

==References==
<references/>

{{SettlementIndex}}

[[category:Hazards]]

Orbital debris

2013-10-11T03:12:37Z

Farred: correction

[[Image:Sts7_crack.jpg|thumb|right|200px|Close-up image of damage caused to by small orbital debris to a window on Space Shuttle ''Challenger'' (STS-007, June 18, 1983).]]

'''Orbital debris''' poses a serious threat to any spacecraft exiting or entering the orbit of Earth. Originating from human activity in space, orbital debris can cause significant damage to spacecraft and endangers manned missions. According to the ''[[NASA]] Orbital Debris Program Office'',<ref>[http://orbitaldebris.jsc.nasa.gov/faqs.html#1 FAQ's on orbital debris (NASA Orbital Debris Program Office)]</ref>

:"''Approximately 11,000 objects larger than 10 cm are known to exist. The estimated population of particles between 1 and 10 cm in diameter is greater than 100,000. The number of particles smaller than 1 cm probably exceeds tens of millions... In low Earth orbit (below 2,000 km), orbital debris circle the Earth at speeds of 7 to 8 km/s. However, the average impact speed of orbital debris with another space object will be approximately 10 km/s. Consequently, collisions with even a small piece of debris will involve considerable energy.''"

It is therefore essential that the most damaging particles/small bodies of debris are tracked efficiently. On Earth, several institutions are responsible for tracking and modeling the size and trajectory of space debris, notably, the ''NASA Orbital Debris Program'' (ODP) safeguards missions such as the ''[[Space Shuttle]]'' and ''[[International Space Station]]''. Manned orbital missions are very rarely under threat from orbital debris in Earth orbit, but the ODP will warn missions to avoid debris that has a 1 in 10,000 chance of collision. This can occur once every one or two years.

Space debris is a result of explosions, collisions or decay of space missions in Earth's orbit. Flecks of paint peeling from an old rocket to defunct satellites, all debris can stay in Earth's orbit for decades, even centuries (depending on the altitude of orbit).

==Risk to Mars==

As missions to Mars increase in regularity, and more observatories are inserted into Martian orbit, space debris population around the Red Planet will increase. Therefore, mission scientists need to carefully plan the design of [[:category:launch vehicles|launch vehicles]] (from the Martian surface) and optimize [[:category:orbiters|orbiters]] so the odds of collision with space debris for any future manned mission remain as low as possible.

Another potentially catastrophic hazard for future settlements on Mars includes the re-entry of man-made satellites and larger debris. We are lucky on Earth in that we have a dense atmosphere to facilitate the frictional burn and break up of [[meteors]], [[meteorites]] and space junk. Routinely, large, expired satellites are allowed to drop in their orbits until [[aerobreaking|atmospheric drag]] slows them significantly to cause re-entry. Usually the debris is allowed to burn up over unpopulated regions of Earth (i.e. the Pacific Ocean or Australian Outback), and should any mass survive the atmospheric burn, at least minimal damage will be caused on impact. The Russian ''[[Mir]]'' Space Station was disposed of in this way in 2001.<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir#Final_days_and_deorbit Mir deorbit and re-entry (Wikipedia).]</ref> Mars however has an [[atmosphere]] 1/100th as dense as Earth, greatly increasing the risk of [[meteorites|impact with manned settlements]] on the surface.

==External Links==
*[http://orbitaldebris.jsc.nasa.gov/index.html NASA Orbital Debris Program Office.]
*[http://hitf.jsc.nasa.gov/hitfpub/main/index.html NASA Hypervelocity Impact Technology Facility.]
*[http://hitf.jsc.nasa.gov/hitfpub/main/index.html ESA: Micrometeoroids and Space Debris - The Eureca Post-Flight Analysis.]

===References===
<references/>

{{SettlementIndex}}

[[category:hazards]]

Talk:Blacksmith

2013-10-06T22:03:29Z

Farred: Undo revision 13684 by 216.244.65.149 (Talk) nonsense

On Luna meteoric iron has shown up as tiny bits in the regolith. If on Mars this iron is conveniently available in large chunks requiring minimal processing to use, it has yet to be demonstrated. Such deposits might not be close to a settlement if they exist.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
:Many multi-tonne pieces of meteoric iron have been found on Earth, even though its orbit is intersected by far fewer asteroids and the meteorite's geological lifespan before eroded or buried is far shorter on Earth's surface. So it's simple extrapolation to expect even larger pieces to be even more abundant on Mars and, to a lesser extent, on the moon. We've done only a miniscule amount of exploration at the necessary detail, so that doesn't tell us anything. As for location, if there is subsurface ice over one-quarter of the surface of Mars, and 400 kilotonne-sized iron meteorites, that gives us 100 locations to choose from with both ice and iron. [[User:Frontiersman|Frontiersman]] 01:39, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
:BTW, do you know of any good studies about the propellant costs of surface-to-surface rocket transport on Mars? [[User:Frontiersman|Frontiersman]] 01:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
:::Simple extrapolation may be simply wrong. We cannot count on it until it is proven, but it is a reasonable guess. I do not think there are good cost estimates for producing anything on Mars yet.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 02:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
:::Let us pool our ignorance and document how much we know that we do not know about meteorites. First, there are more meteoroids and asteroids that cross Mars' orbit than Earth's orbit. What is the numerical difference? I do not know. Second Earth's larger gravity well draws a larger fraction of the nearby meteoroids to strike it than does Mars' gravity well. What is the numerical difference? I do not know. Third, Earth's atmosphere tends to stress stony meteoroids of less than about a hundred feet or so in diameter and more than some unknown diameter to the extent that they explode in the air and leave no trace but dust on the ground but slows 100 foot diameter iron meteoroids so they have less of a tendency to vaporize on hitting the ground. To what extent does this enrich the number of intact iron meteoroids available to be found on the Earth's surface as compared to a world with a negligible atmosphere? I do not know. Fourth, Mars had water on its surface in the geologically recent past. This water would have had an equilibrium level of dissolved carbon dioxide making a somewhat acid solution. To what extent would this have dissolved iron meteorites and left a red iron oxide residue spread over the planet? I do not know. Fifth, I hear that Mars rovers found little bits of meteoric iron. How does this evidence affect the likelihood of finding industrially useful quantities of meteoric iron on Mars? I do not know.
:::Are there any more factors that would influence the likelihood of finding meteoric iron on the surface of Mars? How much ignorance can you add to the pool? How much are we ignorant of that neither of us knows that we are ignorant of? If we want to avoid disappointments and criticism that we were wrong in suggesting an unworkable strategy, we must be cautious to avoid basing plans firmly upon things which are only uncertainly known.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 23:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
::::Those are all good questions to ask. They will be answered by more detailed planetary science in the coming decades (although with some research effort many could be answered with the data we have today). Alas, today, almost nothing we need to know about either economically or physically self-sufficient colonies is firm. We face the task of using what we do know, along with our judgments and common sense, to separate the slightly speculative (in which category I put accessible kilotonnes of meteoric iron on Mars) from the speculative (e.g. the possibilities of gold and diamond on Mars, or the possibility of radically lower launch costs, or how large an industrial infrastructure is needed to build electronics) from the wildly speculative (e.g. self-replicating machines). We could use even finer gradations of speculation, a scale. But we might not agree on many of the places to put various hypotheses on that scale.
::::BTW, your list of questions above plus the text on meteoric iron I have in the article would make a great start for a new article on meteoric iron. [[User:Frontiersman|Frontiersman]] 18:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Luna-Mars Trade

2013-10-04T09:19:44Z

Farred: addition

[[Mars]] could return dividends at the same time that Luna does if they join forces.
==Lunar Needs==
Luna has considerable potential for manufacturing and shipping goods into [[orbit]] about [[Earth]] where it can be of financial benefit, but Luna is short of [[Hydrogen]], [[Nitrogen]], and [[Carbon]]. These elements are not only necessary for life, they are useful for many industrial processes. Mars has all of these elements in reasonably recoverable concentrations, and could export them to Luna and Earth orbiting factories.

===Mining Phobos===
Phobos may be rich in volatiles<ref>Near-Infrared Spectrophotometry of Phobos and Deimos http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2002Icar..156...64R&db_key=AST&data_type=HTML&format=&high=452a3fe65704274</ref>, which are needed by Luna.
Phobos could be ground up and processed at one end and the tailings dumped at the other end. It should be many years before the entire moon is converted into tailings, during that time Luna and Earth orbiting factories should be churning out a great many solar power satellites, orbital habitats, and orbiting space ports to help lift traffic from Earth. If Phobos is 30% by weight volatiles and ships six thousand tons a year that is part ammonium cyanide and part propane, then after fifty years 100 billionths of Phobos will be processed.<ref> Phobos weighs 1*10^16 kg according to the Phobos article at Wikipedia.</ref>
==Martian Needs==
===Manufactured Goods===
Initial Martian settlements will have little industrial infrastructure, and will have to import many goods such as [[electronics]] and [[medicine]]. Lunar settlements are in a good position to supply some of these needs, as the energy cost of transport from Luna is much less than from Earth.
===Financing===
Like Lunar settlements, Martian settlements need funding to survive. Sales of Martian resources to Lunar and other interests could be a major source of cash. The ultimate source of the cash is customers on Earth that buy power from space based solar power plant manufactured with materials mined on Luna.
===Transportation===
To get goods from Luna to Mars, those goods could be launched from Luna with mass drivers and transferred from Earth's orbital position to Mars with a VASIMR propulsion system. Each delivery could be packed with a fiber glass composite heat shield and a woven glass fiber parachute. There would be no need to pack the parachute compactly for shipment. It would be woven in space from lunar materials. Some of the [[Space access|MTLMOS]] flights would be dedicated to launching refueled methane/oxygen retro-rockets for the final landing deceleration. Shipments to Mars would rendezvous at a space station to mate with retro-rockets while the VASIMR transport system would take a shipment to Luna.

==Mutual Needs==
Settlements on Mars and Luna share many needs and opportunities.
===Information===
Information such as patented ideas, literature, scientific research, and computer programs can be created and traded between Luna and Mars at little to no transport expense using a [[radio link]].
===Genetic Diversity===
Small vessels with cryopreserved germ or eggs can be exchanged in order to enhance the genetic diversity in the [[population]]. Also, special breedings for [[plants]] and [[animals]] with an adaptation to low gravity or with [[radiation]] tolerance can be exchanged.

==references==
<references/>

==See also==
*[[lunarp:Luna-Mars Trade|Lunarpedia:Luna-Mars Trade]]

[[category:Commerce]]

User talk:Rfc

2013-10-04T09:00:58Z

Farred: talk

==Messages==

Welcome to Marspedia! I look forward to seeing more of you in the future. You seem familiar with wikis but if you need any help, look at http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Main_Page#New_Users_Start_Here.21 or contact one of the admins. Enjoy! [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 16:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

:Hi Ian, thank you very much for your warm welcome. I have started to write articles, and I should like to know your opinion. Is this the kind of article this project wants, or is it too fantastic, all-too much pointed to a speculative future? [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 10:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Rfc (do you have a first name, or are you staying anonymous?), it's good to see you contributing in such a positive way. The content you have provided so far is great - any speculative future is fine in my books. Also, you can include your ''personal opinion'' (so long as you clearly state "<nowiki>{{PersPosArticle}} ~~~</nowiki>" which prints "{{PersPosArticle}} [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]]") - personal opinions are fine. Besides, it may create some good discussion. For the main part, article creation is positive step regardless of opinion, speculation or ideas as long as you are fine with a good debate! Anyhow, you seem to have experience with wikis and the content is looking good, so keep it up :-) [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 19:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

* Thanks a lot for your attention --[[User:PPark|PPark]] 18:56, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
===Site development===
Hi, I'm just messaging the active contributers to Marspedia to get their views on the redesign of the front page. I've tried to highlight the important links and made the page more accessible to newcomers. Also I've created a Wikipedia-style "featured articles" section. I'd be really interested to hear your views on this. It's going to take a lot more work, but this is a good start. Primarily I want to extract the important info and cut down on the excessive text that may cause confusion (as suggested by a couple of you). However, I haven't removed anything as yet, simply jigged it around a bit. I'll look forward to getting your input :-) -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 08:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
:You did a great job, Ian! It really looks better. How about [[Main Page|my changes]]? It is just a proposal, so if you see a problem, please redo it. I am not entirely sure about the place for the "Notice" section. Is it required to stay on top of the page? [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 10:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
::Hi Rfc! Thank you, glad you like the redesign :-) I really like your changes too, but for now the copyright notice needs to stay where it is - although I'm getting confirmation from the developers. We are able to change certain things on the front page, but I'm worried about the copyright notice. I love the fact you've moved the "mission statement", that will stay where it is, but for now the copyright will have to stay unmoved. Nice work though! I will let you know when I get a reply to my email about further changes and we can take it from there. Also, suggestions for the slogan after "Welcome to Marspedia!" will be gratefully received, not sure if "''The collaborative resource for building a colony on the Red Planet.''" reads that well... Keep up the superb work! I've been reading your new articles and they are superb, I look forward to seeing more! Did you take a major in Mars settlement design?? Certainly looks like it ;-) Cheers, -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 20:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
:::Does a "major in Mars settlement design" really exist? No, I am not, but I am used to design complex telecommunication systems, including some system engineering. I would love to do "Mars settlement design" fulltime, but I guess this is not good for earning the money I need for living (on Earth for the time beeing;-). -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:13, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

::::I really wish it did exist! I think the Mars Foundation once had a volunteer who took an engineering course in settlement design, but I dont think he's with us any more. There are ways to make a little cash from Mars settlement concepts, but it's mainly educational. Have a look at our site: [http://www.marshome.org/grants.php http://www.marshome.org/grants.php] to see what can be awarded. Really only useful for students at the moment, but we are hoping to develop funding eventually. -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 20:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

===List of Lists===
The List of Lists exists solely for site development. I've hopefully answered some of your questions about it and copied the discussion over to the talk page for List of Lists. Ask more questions and propose things (or leap into action for that matter), just note that I may not respond for quite a few hours. It's daybreak here and I've been up since yesterday... --[[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 12:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
:Thanks for explaining. Sweet dreams ... -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 14:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

===Blocking repeated bot offenders===
Hey Rfc. Thanks for the idea to block the MER category and Exobiology page - only registered users can edit them now. Between us we probably reverted a hundred edits! At least these pages should be quiet for a month (I put a 1 month limit on the block to see if that is enough).

Sorry I've been a little quiet of late, my laptop crashed last week and it looks like it's dead now, so i'm limited to using the family backup PC for now until I get a new machine. Any problems, I always have access to my email and will be checking Marspedia daily.

Hope you are well and having a nice Christmas in Germany :-) -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 12:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

===Featured Article===
Hi Rfc. Thanks for the info on the MarsDrive article, will get to the bottom of who posted it :-)

I have changed the featured article on the front page to the [[Greenhouse]] article you added a lot of new concepts to. Have a look. I used one of your diagrams as I thought it was most descriptive :-) Enjoy!

Take care and catch you soon [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 16:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

:Yes, it sprang into my eye, and I feel it's a great honor:-) Besides, "funerals and burials" seems to be double. Perhaps, ''burial'' is the better word, for it is closer to the act carried out in the greenhouse. Hope you had a great season, as well! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 07:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Rfc! Long time no see! I've been away for so long, I was forgetting how to wiki... looks like things have been moderately quiet over here, but I thought I'd change the "featured article" on the front page. Now I'm back, I think it's high time to re-invigorate this project, especially with Phoenix landing on Mars last week. Will hopefully see you soon! Hope you are well :-) -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 00:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

:Hi Ian, welcome back! I too had not much time during the last few months, but I tried to keep an eye on Marspedia at least. I have tried to find a payed job in the planetary research field, but I was not successful near my home. Besides I have talked to many people about the topic, but most people are simply not interested, some even find it a waste of money. So I guess we have to continue with only a few enthusiasts in our spare time, and hopefully we can generate additional attraction by our work here. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

===General===
Hi Rfc. Good news, I now have a new laptop up and running so I hope to be a bit more active on Marspedia! I have some catching up to do, some superb articles have appeared, I'd better get reading. Hope all is good with you. -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 12:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
:Hi Ian, congratulations! Laptops are pretty useful, but I don't like their keyboard layout. A bunch of new ''open issues'' have appeared too. It's funny to see how little we know, once we go a little deeper into realization aspects. We could need the help of some specialists (e.g. geologists, chemists, biologists, etc.). And my impression is, the global number of people interested in Martian settlements is less than a hundred, or so. Very few of them seem to have even recognized the emerging of the Marspedia project.
:I am looking forward to January 30th, when the asteroid ''2007 WD5'' crosses the Martian orbital trajectory. There is a tiny chance to hit Phobos ... -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 15:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

==captcha code==

Dear RFC, thanks for the captcha code on lunarpedia. Alas I do not have php access, so cannot do anything with it. Only MikeD has php access. Thanks. [[User:Cfrjlr|Charles F. Radley]] 03:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

:Hi Charles, I have asked [[user:Ioneill|Ioneill]] to install the PHP code, for he ‎is a Bureaucrat too. --[[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
::You need to be way more than a Bureaucrat to install or upgrade extensions. And if I recall correctly, [[user:Ioneill|Ioneill]] is way more than a Bureaucrat, he can correct me if I'm wrong or get reminders of usernames and passwords if I'm right.
::However, I will be conducting some long overdue maintenance this weekend.
::- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 06:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi James, can you please help with [[Marsp:User_talk:Ioneill#gibberish from bot net|this]]? --[[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi again, there are new bot attacks in both Lunarpedia and Marspedia, and I wonder whether it is less work to install the [[Marsp:Marspedia:Captcha|new captcha trigger]] or to revert the bot's edits over and over. As fas as I understand you are the only person keeping the passwords for php access. It should take only a few minutes to insert the green parts:
# Logon to the machine where the wikimedia software is running.
# Find the files ConfirmEdit.php, ConfirmEdit.i18n.php, ConfirmEdit_body.php.
# Be sure the contents of the files match.
# Create a backup copy of the files.
# Insert the green parts using vi or prepare the files on your PC and ftp them.
# Check the effect. If you try to change the first letter in a page a captcha should pop up on clicking the "save page" button.
That should be all. You can count on my assistance, if needed. Cheers! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 10:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I ''don't'' have them. They're all in a text file on a hard drive that may be complete toast that can only run on a specific notebook of mine that may also be complete toast. {{lunarp|User:Dcarson|Dana Carson}} and {{lunarp|User:Mdelaney|Mike Delaney}} both have these passwords last I checked, however. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 10:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

== vacation ==

I'll be on vacation for a few days, without access to the internet. Don't worry about my temporary absence. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:44, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
:Have a good time! A break from the internet is a good thing now and then. --[[User:Laertes|Nate]] 23:05, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

== A problem on Lunarpedia ==
Anonymous IP's have edited Strangelove's User:talk page with no response. There is a new user account that has been started in the Russian language. I suspect illegal activity abusing Lunarpedia's undefended condition. I suggest the temporary prohibition of new accounts on Lunarpedia until this gets sorted out. There should be a policy of english language only on Lunarpedia pages if that policy does not exist already. This is a crisis that I hope we can come through.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:17, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
I am sorry that I am not in position to take on administrative responsibilities for Lunarpedia at present. I am willing to look into what would be needed. Anonymous edits at Lunarpedia should also be temporarily disabled.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:37, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
:Since I am only a common user like you, I can not really help. But I am sure the two sysops, you have left a message to, will take appropriate action soon. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 19:27, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
== An article to delete ==
I wrote a new article titled "Solar heat engine." I was unaware of the article Solar concentrator at the time. A portion of what I wrote fit as part of a sub point "Thermal Engines" under "Utilization of Focused Solar Radiation" in the article "Solar concentrator" in the category "Energy" in the category "Technology" in the category "Settlements" in the category "Main." It is not the way I would have arranged categories, but that is how they are and it is best to just fit into the current structure unless someone wants to do a whole reorganization of the site. So, my article is now redundant and hanging in no category. Please delete my article, "Solar heat engine." It can be found in my contributions. Thanks for your consideration.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:27, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
:Hi Farred, I have placed a note on [[Deletion]]. I can not delete articles myself, because I do not have sysop permission. Hopefully, one of the sysops drops in and stumbles on it. The categories tree is not really good, indeed. I, too, feel it needs some rearrangement. Please feel free to do it. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 10:22, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
::Thanks, I now remember that putting a note on the Deletion page is what I should have done. I am not the best at Categorizing articles, but even I could make modest improvements on the present structure, if I were confident of the Wiki techniques. I must learn new things in my old age, better late than never.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
:The easiest way to create a new category is to place a category tag of a non-existing category on an article's page, which you want to categorize. Then follow the link that appears on the bottom of the article's page and you will find yourself in the middle of an edit pane. To find out what to type in this edit pane, you may have a look into some existing category page, with the edit mode activated (click on the edit tab). The same principle works for article pages as well. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:59, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
::After considering the problem of what Wiki techniques to use and reading your advice, all that is left to do is study the present category arrangement to become familiar enough with it to actually make an improvement. I will propose a change when I come up with one. Do not hold your breath waiting for it.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:04, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

== non Mars related advertising on Marspedia site ==
Hello Rfc,

New User:4400 has put a link to Puma shoes on his user page. I do not think this is the sort of contribution Marspedia seeks. I do not know if the corporation has anything to do with this. I could start with a comment on User:4400's talk page, but editing User:4400's user page may be necessary. I thought I would seek your input.[[User:Farred|Farred]] 01:45, 4 July 2010 (UTC) Jarogers took care of it. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 15:00, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

== The spelling of aluminium ==
Hello Rfc:

A new user on Lunarpedia, Jotagiraldez, is apparently very productive and talented. One thing he changed that I would disagree with is the spelling of aluminum being changed to aluminium, the British variant that my spell checker flags as an error. I give an argument for the old spelling on the <nowiki> [[Talk:Aluminium]] </nowiki> page if you care to look. I would like to notify as many people as might care about this. You seem to have taken some interest in Lunarpedia in the past and the issue might come up on Marspedia in the future.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 17:07, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

: My spell checker (The Firefox browser) poses the same like yours, so I have the same problem. In my mind there are two contrary argumentations: 1. The [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aluminum same discussion] took place in Wikipedia in December 2002, and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aluminum&redirect=no Aluminum] has been a mere redirect page on Wikipedia ever since. So Wikipedia could be used as a reference. 2. Probably, the majority of Mars and Moon flight enthusiasts live in the US, which may be proved by the [[Public interest#Mars Society |Mars Society membership log]]. After all, it is not an easy question. And there is another thought that occurred to me: We should avoid any distress for that productive and talented user on Lunarpedia. The preference of a spelling variant may not be worth it. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:11, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

::I have followed your advice in a reply to User:Jotagiraldez. Thanks. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:11, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

==The references for fluoride==
In [[Dental caries]] I made an effort for references for necessary chemical elements being on Mars as you suggested. Do you think that is sufficient? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 05:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
:How does ''"fluorine has not been discovered"'' and ''"The necessary chemical elements are on Mars"'' fit together? Wouldn't it be better changed to ''"The necessary chemical elements may be found on Mars later on"'' or something like this? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:51, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
::::It is the principal ores of fluoride that have not been discovered. Fluoride is not so abundant that we would expect it to be noticed in the first analysis of Martian sand and rock but the expectation that the elemental composition of Mars is similar to Earth's is based on sound science. From the nature of fluorine we would not expect it to be drawn into Mars' core like siderophiles. It would not disappear like volatiles from Luna because it does not primarily form volatiles and Mars does not loose volatiles anyway. Since fluorine is the 13th most abundant element on Earth it should not be absent from Mars. It is conceivable that fluorine is so rare on Mars that it can not be extracted economically, but this would require scientists to rework some basic theories of the formation of the solar system. The idea that Mars would need to import fluoride from Earth forever is such an unlikely possibility that I would say it is not worth mentioning. Perhaps we can change the article from "chemical elements are on Mars" to "chemical elements are expected to exist on Mars" and change "it will be cheaper to extract" to "should be cheaper to extract". What do you think? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
:Agreed! Thank you. It is not such an important thing. I just stumbled over it. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:39, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
::OK, will do. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 08:57, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

== Error creating thumbnail ==
Hello James, there is a permanent "Error creating thumbnail" problem on Marspedia. Example: http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Charcoal
I am sure this is a software bug or configuration problem, that has arisen with one of the last updates or administrational activities. I am afraid, this is really annoying for anyone who wants to do a contribution. Who can fix this? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:24, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

:The problem also exists on Lunarpedia and probably all of the wikis. Unfortunately, we're all completely overwhelmed by the new website and the hosting migration. Last I checked we were very likely going to be migrating the wikis as well. Please fasten your safety belts. The ride may get bumpier in the next couple of months... -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 02:05, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

==Artificial intelligence article==
I have made changes in the [[Artificial intelligence, automated industry and colonizing Mars|artificial intelligence article]]. Do you consider it an improvement? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 01:29, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
:Better, yes. And yet, the main idea points to a kind of expensive high-tech economy. It is an interesting article after all, a good starting point for thinking. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:02, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
::I intended an expensive high-tech economy. Considering the difficulties of mining ice to get water, freezing the carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere to get nitrogen, and the entirely artificial basis of agricultural and atmosphere maintenance; I am not convinced that an exclusively low-tech colony on Mars is possible. You would not be able to have a black smith hammering out the pistons and cylinders of a mining machine that carries both fuel and oxygen tanks. There is a place for low-tech activities, but I do not think they can fill all needs. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 03:47, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

== Editting Deletion ==
Thanks for sorting out the finished items and deleting them. It made it easier for me to delete a batch of the rest. I had forgotten all about that list. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 01:07, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
:Thanks for doing all the cleanup work. The items in chapter "Articles for deletion" contain only empty pages from spammers. Not real user's pages. I think those can be deleted as well. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 21:14, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
::The section <nowiki>==Articles for deletion==</nowiki> is now also "(nothing to do)" - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:54, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

== What are havaries? ==
There is a link that you put into the article [[Genetic engineering]] that leads to the article [[Fail-safe]]. What is the meaning of the rendered text in the link, "havaries"? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:54, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
:Yes, this was a bit rough. Now I have overhauled the whole article a little. The article was created some 5 years ago, and many other articles have emerged since. So, it is much easier now to properly link the words to other articles. Marspedia has been growing a good deal, even with a small number of writers. I was hoping to attract more readers and writers from my activities on [http://marsonefans.com http://marsonefans.com], but I was not exactly successful apparently. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 08:46, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
::Perhaps someone will notice the improvements to this website. I will fix the typo in a link I mentioned above just because I do not like errors. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 09:00, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

User talk:Farred

2013-10-04T01:14:09Z

Farred: done

User talk:Farred

2013-10-04T01:08:45Z

Farred: to do

Welcome to the flip side. :D - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 22:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:Happy to be here. Thanks. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
::I want to get a link to Mike Combs' space settlement FAQ to work, so I will try it here.
::Well, I tried it. It did not work. I removed it. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 04:56, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
How about that one: [http://space.mike-combs.com/spacsetl.htm#moon_mining Space settlement - What is there to mine on the moon?]? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 19:29, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
:I tried the new link put in by Spriditis. It works fine. It seems to me that links have a tendency to go bad with time. I think the link that I put in worked when I wrote it. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:20, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
::I used wiki tags [http://url_path url_title] - <nowiki>[http://url_path url_title]</nowiki>, You used just url.. maybe that was the case. -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 15:01, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
:::Thanks --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

== SPAM ==
Hi! I help [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] on Lunarpedia, and we've developed some tools and methods to help us deal with spam.

One thing that we do is set the "reason" for deleting a spam page to just "spam." If the original text of the spam remains in any form, it's possible that the spammer will get paid for it and come back and bring his spammer buds along.

I believe Strangelv has installed his WHUMP tool here, which will auto-delete spam on new pages and block the creator. We'll be tweaking the lists of words, since WHUMP was originally created for lpedia, a political wiki, but I'm sure it will help us keep the spam under control here. Please do tell us common "spam indicator" words that you see in the spam you delete.

[[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 16:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:I am happy to see anyone fight the spammers. When I delete a spam page there is automatically a string of text that shows up in the recent changes as the first few bytes of text as part of the reason for deleting the page. This string is only in recent changes and is only available as long as the recent changes is available. Do you want me to erase this string too? I do not delete according to a particular set of words. I check if the posting has a link advertising something that is not Mars or if the text advertises something that is not Mars. In a few of the cases a connection to Mars could have been made if the user had any interest in Mars, but since the user is just a computer program, there is no effort to refer to colonizing Mars. The post is spam and it's history. If I do notice good spam indicator words, I'll let you know. Thanks for being part of the good effort. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

::I wonder how many legitimate articles are uncategorized -- on LPedia (not connected to Marspedia, Lunarpedia et al. -- it's a political party wiki) that's been the most reliable source for identifying garbage articles as Brian Holtz categorized the last remaining uncategorized pages in the main namespace. Let me wake up enough to start collecting lists of articles to delete and feed into WHUMP. Ideally I'd like to delete the party that posted them originally, but I may chicken out and just have it delete the articles. As WHUMP is flagged as a bot, its activities are hidden by default. Click on 'Show Bots' on Recent Changes to see if it's done anything recently. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 22:14, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:::Done; just a blanket delete with no effort to hunt down and ban the original author -- after al[l, at least one of those might have started legitimately. Moving on to uncategorized pages. The situation here is a lot less bad than I'd assumed from the plea for help. Well, except for the classified as an attack page bit.

:::I'm having trouble getting WHUMP's actions to show up in RecentChanges even with Show Bots selected though. Wait, going back to default and then pressing show bots it works. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 22:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:::Have we run out of targets on Marspedia already? It may be time to move on to Exodictionary -- it's been getting slowly pummeled for awhile, although it may not be a large percentage as it has more articles than the rest of our wikis put together -- at least until I get Autostub1 working and crank out about 10,000 articles for Lunarpedia... -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 00:23, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
::::Congratulations, Strangelv, on getting WHUMP to work. I count 122 title only articles deleted. I did not hear about Marspedia being described as having an attack page. What is the trouble with an attack page? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 09:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

There are two sorts of SPAM: 
1. Manually inserted text, which seems not so frequent. 
2. New user accounts, obviously created by bot. Also, some exchange of whole paragraphs, probably carried out by bot. So, we need a better ''captcha'' to block the bots. Are you in contact with Dana Carson or Mike Delaney, who should be authorized to modify the wikimedia software? Strangelv may be in close contact with them. See also [[User talk:rfc#captcha code]]. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
:Well, I have been in contact with James Gholston and some others about the spam situation. I think people are doing as much as seems reasonable with captcha and automated spam removal. The spammers just seem to have some way of getting around the captcha with little effort. It may involve a work at home scam by which they con numerous poor people into doing their spamming. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

== [http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?client=tmpg&hl=ru&langpair=ru|en&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&u=http://inocont.net/&usg=ALkJrhi0tZ8DczDS3kY5_KeoktduNAaPFw InoCont] ==

Dear Farred! Thank you for your participation in the development of [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept|the concept of "InoCont"]] and the editorial work you are doing in this area.

As you know, the international scientific and creative program "Another Contin(g)ent» (www.inocont.net) is developing nearly 4 years, and our aims are to unite creative people of all countries to search for a vector of future discoveries and achievements in all spheres of activity both in space and on Earth. This is - a call for co-organizing an international experiment in the creation and testing of complex models of life and infrastructure of autonomous planetary settlements (APS).

Extended abstract concepts in the English language is available on the Marspedia (http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Another_Contin%28g%29ent_Concept ).

Most likely, you will see that our initiative is still evolving without external funding, receives no government support and investment, and relies solely on personal savings and the enthusiasm of volunteers.

We all believe that in an increasingly globalizing world, experiential understanding of the phenomenon of autonomy is necessary for regeneration of new socially significant meanings. This will not only introduce new ideas to solve the problem of initial survival, but also will open up innovative approaches in the development.

The "InoСont" Program relies on the principle of "from the complex – to a simple", which means the union of all the inhabitants of Earth in search of solutions for large-scale social settlements on the Moon, Mars and other objects in the solar system. It is able to rethink the problems of life on Earth and to strengthen the fundamental-project basis for innovative development.

For this paradoxal purpose we develop a unique methodology for forecasting design (FutureDesign) of socio-technological imperatives of development, which will focus on intermediate contests. The first one is planned under the title "UniCont" under the "Cultural Universiade-2013" during the XXVII Summer World Student Games in Kazan, Russia.

We believe that the development of the niche free competition will be extremely attractive to investors today. The Program provides competitive to attract investments for the implementation of the startups.

Development of information and the methodological basis of the experiment will focus on network semantic design, business-project games, musical improvization, simulations in virtual worlds and the creation of full-scale APS’ prototype architectural and engineering controls, etc. The achievement of high-level design specifications (and this is - more than half of the success of any innovation) will contribute to broad interdisciplinary projects and their testing in difficult climatic conditions of the Arctic, underwater, underground and other extreme environments.

Example of APS can become a good practice, working on a team project based on your scientific and cultural interests: that is suitable for extreme conditions, will be effective for milder conditions of the Earth.

All this requires special support from society and business, liders of culture, high-quality new partners.

Please help the program "InoСont" by your tremendous experience and recommendations, well-aimed advice to colleagues and students.

I would be happy personal acquaintance with you and fruitful cooperation.

I wish you good health and all good things of life

''Nazym F. Sayfullin, Chairman of the "Planetonautics" Section, Moscow Society of Naturalists (founded in 1805)''

Welcome to Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/groups/inocont/

--[[User:PPark|PPark]] 10:09, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
:To Nazym F. Sayfullin:
::My efforts with the <nowiki>[[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]] article were not undertaken on behalf of InoCont. It is my duty and my privilege as a guest administrator on Marspedia too serve the interest of Marspedia, which is the interest of THE MARS SOCIETY. I see no evidence that InoCont is a legal person capable of owning copyrights. I see no indication that Inocont is anything more than the creation of Nazym F. Sayfullin or PPark. The quality of the material posted by PPark does not suggest scholarly effort. It seems that the intent of Marspedia has been to give contributors a chance to bring their work up to a quality that reflects well upon Marspedia. So I have been trying to improve [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]]</nowiki> in hope that you get the idea that unfamiliarity with the English language is not an excuse for posting extensive amounts rambling disjointed prose on Marspedia. Claims of official positions with societies do not merit any special consideration on Marspedia unless they can be substantiated by officials of THE MARS SOCIETY. So far I have not had any indication that THE MARS SOCIETY has any interest in promoting InoCont or its program. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:43, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

==Contribution copyright status==
You've made contributions to Marspedia between 1 January and 20 June 2012, a period where there is a problem with the rules for the main namespace, specifically [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]], [[Coronal Mass Ejections]], and [[Foundation of an Autonomous Colony]]. Do you officially allow your contributions to be released to the public domain? ...And by any chance are you the one who contributed anonymously to [[Autonomous planetary settlement]] from 174.31.99.237? Otherwise we may need to revert those helpful edits.-- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 02:17, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
:I officially allow my contributions to Marspedia to be released to public domain. It seems likely that the contribution from 174.31.99.237 was mine also, but I have no control over the IP addresses that are assigned to me, and I have kept no record. I just reverted that contribution and replaced it with one listed to my Marspedia name. I hope this is helpful. I can make further clean-up edits to <nowiki>[[Autonomous planetary settlement]]</nowiki> if I find the time. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:47, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

==To do==
The edit by user:123.115.107.183 on the 16th of July to the Talk:Discussion page related Cnc (computer numerical control) machining to considerations for Earthly use, but CNC machining would be a good compliment to forging on Mars too. It is possible that this IP address editor was making a good faith effort to contribute to the discussion of Mars colonization, but the edit was not in the proper place to be appreciated. I hope to add something about CNC machining when I can do it well and in the proper place. It is somewhat related to [[Colonization strategy]]. I have got [[Talk:Teraforming]] and other things to consider. Too much to do. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:38, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:Something Rose and I noticed a month or so ago was that some of the article-damaging attacks were using an AI that made text that read very much like it was on topic. The only way it was unambigous that it wasn't an attempt at a legitimate contribution was because it was deleting pre-existing content a section at a time, consistent with a common attack strategy.

:Fortunately, the main attackers singling out Marspedia are running low on non-blocked IP addresses. At least the ones who aren't creating garbage accounts and little else...

:--[[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 01:47, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

fix <nowiki>[[Outgassing]] definition; review [[Economic Systems and their Relation to a Mars Colony]]</nowiki> - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 01:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

==Deletion reasons:==
*unused file form unknown source with unknown copyright status

*unused non-English file with unknown copyright status
- [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
:check User:LarueOgv
:[[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:47, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

==Technical Difficulties==
What exactly goes wrong when you edit and what do I need to do to duplicate the problem on my end? -- [[Special:Contributions/173.74.208.113|173.74.208.113]] 06:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I suppose messaging might work better if I'd remember to log in first, which reminds me of another problem I've been baffled by: why WHUMP is no longer able to log into here. I get this error message:

the high score is 670
Starting check for site http://marspedia.org
Logging In
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/[SNIP path]/WHUMP_M814_1247_marsp.py", line 192, in <module>
BR.select_form(name="userlogin")
File "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/mechanize/_mechanize.py", line 530, in select_form
raise FormNotFoundError("no form matching "+description)
mechanize._mechanize.FormNotFoundError: no form matching name 'userlogin'

...And I've been unable to figure out why. It was working before and only breaks for this wiki out of the five I'm presently running or trying to run [[User:WHUMP|WHUMP]] on.

Okay, I just hit preview and fot a page full of hyperlinks that are definitely not wanted. The background graphics were intact, and I belivee the text was over the graphics. Is this the problem you're running into? I'm still not sure how it could be caused. ...unless this is something in addition to what you're running into and it's happened since the last time I looked...

Interestingly, Firefox's built in spell checker isn't working right now as I type this.

There it goes again. First the links, then the template, and the links are under the graphics and a few DIVs that are part of the template.

hmm.

-- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 06:17, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

WHUMP's last ban here was 7 August, which may correspond to the problem unless it corresponds to my disk trouble that took my workstation offline for 2-3 weeks (doesn't look like it). When did the page full of garge links problem start? -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 06:36, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I've replaced the main directory's non-data php files with a set copied from exodictionary and am attempting to reproduce the problem. I'm not succeeding. Maybe this has been going on longer than I suspected?

Bonus: WHUMP is now able to log in again! -- so if the problem has been around since at least May (going by the date stamps on the files before I overwrote them, which is the date the attack I knew about was removed), why did it not become a problem for WHUMP until August? -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 07:01, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
:From your message it seems that you have found the problem that I mentioned on your talk page at Lunarpedia on the 17th of August. The symptoms you describe are consistent with what I see, but I do not notice the problems with WHUMP or Firefox because I do not run these programs. A possibility that I can guess at for staged symptoms is that at one point an attacker got access to the system and later by using that access found a place to make alterations that caused present symptoms. That is as close as I can come to being helpful. I no nothing in particular about programming wikis or setting them up. Good luck. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 10:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
::I hope the problem is fixed now. I did not see the spam links filling the screen when I edited my talk page last. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 10:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
:::On the Recent Changes page click on the Show Bots link to see what WHUMP has been up to lately. 8) -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 11:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
::::Good work! - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:20, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

==whoops==
Yes, I agree that anonymous people should not be allowed to crap up Marspedia. If we force them to create an account, that discourages a lot of spam right there. If they actually create an account and log in, it's far easier to get rid of all their crap; JamesG has a script to help mechanize spam removal. [[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 20:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

==more SPAM==
Yes, I agree that anonymous people should not be allowed to crap up Marspedia. If we force them to create an account, that discourages a lot of spam right there. If they actually create an account and log in, it's far easier to get rid of all their crap; JamesG has a script to help mechanize spam removal. [[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 19:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

:I have to disagree: the anonymous attacks expose their IP addresses and we can deal with them for however long we need to (180 days almost always works): they run out of IP addresses and can't attack anymore until they get new ones -- and then those get banned for 180 days too. When they create accounts they're protected: they can create new accounts continuously, and the longest the IP gets blocked is 24 hours. Give me anonymous IP attacks any day. It's the account-creating attacks that are a problem. If we want to get desperate, blocking account creation would go a lot further towards bringing the situation under control. The [[User:WHUMP|WHUMP]] script is running as I type and has been for quite awhile. I haven't thought of an algorithm for detecting damaging attacks to existing articles (so WHEMP automatically ignores such attacks), but I believe the Bad Behavior extension can help deal with those if we install it. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 20:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

::I replied on Miros1's talk page before seeing Strangelv's comment too. As to blocking IP addresses, I am not sure it does any good. I have checked for deleted contributions from IPs when removing their SPAM and only a couple of times have I found any. In those cases I blocked the IP. It may be that there is some other way of spoofing the system to give multiple IP addresses to one user than using a bot-net; or there may be so many zombie addresses available that the spammer never needs to use one twice. I am certain that I have never seen an over 180 day old deleted contribution listed to an IP. I will mention here too that I suspect a virus in my e-mail account. So I will try not to pass it along as we do what we can. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
::Now I see that undone contributions do not show up as deleted contributions on Marspedia like they do on Wikipedia. That makes things different than I suspected. I will start blocking IP address spammers more. Changing deleted contributions to include undone contributions might be more trouble than it is worth. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

==Featured article==
How do you think about [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk%3AMain_Page&diff=7767&oldid=7489 this proposal]? Problem is, I do not have permission to do it myself. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:50, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
:Whatever article you think would be good as a featured article is likely to be an improvement over leaving the same featured article for years. I have no experience in changing featured articles. I was just given administrator powers when there was a rash of vandalism to the wiki so I could help with that, but I have little technical knowledge about how a wiki is managed. People who disagree with your choice have every opportunity to voice there opinions. I have seen no objections to your proposal so far. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:01, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
All you need is to edit [[Template:Featured article]]. You may just copy parts of the selected article into there, and that is that. I have not the permission to do it, that is why I am asking you. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 21:07, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I have created a draft [[Template:Featured article draft|here]]. Could you please have a look and, may be after some enhancement or not, put it in [[Template:Featured article|there]] in order to make it appear on the main page? Thanks.

One more thing: Sorry for writing onto you user's page. I am going to move all the discussion stuff to your talk page, and I hope this is okay with you. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 14:50, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

:Thanks for moving the talk to my talk page. I was thinking I would get around to it sooner or later. I did see your edit on my user page and on <nowiki>[[Talk:Equipment for autonomous growth]]</nowiki> earlier but was still considering how to respond when I had the time. You have made it so easy for me now that I will first edit the featured article template and see what happens, second get back to autonomous growth later. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:34, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

==Sorry==
Note to self: never again edit Marspedia just because you think the medicine has worn off. I ''really'' messed that [[semimajor axis]] article up. Sorry. [[User:ChristiaanK|ChristiaanK]] 04:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

== user Rfc is blocked ==

Is blocking a proper mitigation for the massive bot attacks? We had better enhance the captcha, because our captcha works really poor. Obviously, the bots have no problem in dealing with our captcha. -- Rfc
:I recently finished 142 actions of blocking, deleting, and undoing the actions of spammers and vandals. I spent two hours and one minute doing that. I also unblocked Rfc. User:Strangelv, our local bureaucrat, changed the new account requirements at Lunarpedia to require requesting an account to get one. That helped. I suppose he could do the same for Marspedia. I will ask. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:07, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
::What was done to reduce spam at Lunarpedia does not seem appropriate for Marspedia. If Whump just keeps working as planned, it is not too much trouble. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
:Whump blocked you 22 minutes after you last recorded edit. I see nothing in that edit that should have attracted Whump's notice. Whump does not seem to have been doing it's standard job since then either. Perhaps it was altered. Something should be fixed. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! You are doing a great job here! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
== New User ==
Pete9804 has started making edits. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:24, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

User talk:Rfc

2013-10-04T00:54:05Z

Farred: talk

==Messages==

Welcome to Marspedia! I look forward to seeing more of you in the future. You seem familiar with wikis but if you need any help, look at http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Main_Page#New_Users_Start_Here.21 or contact one of the admins. Enjoy! [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 16:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

:Hi Ian, thank you very much for your warm welcome. I have started to write articles, and I should like to know your opinion. Is this the kind of article this project wants, or is it too fantastic, all-too much pointed to a speculative future? [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 10:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Rfc (do you have a first name, or are you staying anonymous?), it's good to see you contributing in such a positive way. The content you have provided so far is great - any speculative future is fine in my books. Also, you can include your ''personal opinion'' (so long as you clearly state "<nowiki>{{PersPosArticle}} ~~~</nowiki>" which prints "{{PersPosArticle}} [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]]") - personal opinions are fine. Besides, it may create some good discussion. For the main part, article creation is positive step regardless of opinion, speculation or ideas as long as you are fine with a good debate! Anyhow, you seem to have experience with wikis and the content is looking good, so keep it up :-) [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 19:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

* Thanks a lot for your attention --[[User:PPark|PPark]] 18:56, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
===Site development===
Hi, I'm just messaging the active contributers to Marspedia to get their views on the redesign of the front page. I've tried to highlight the important links and made the page more accessible to newcomers. Also I've created a Wikipedia-style "featured articles" section. I'd be really interested to hear your views on this. It's going to take a lot more work, but this is a good start. Primarily I want to extract the important info and cut down on the excessive text that may cause confusion (as suggested by a couple of you). However, I haven't removed anything as yet, simply jigged it around a bit. I'll look forward to getting your input :-) -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 08:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
:You did a great job, Ian! It really looks better. How about [[Main Page|my changes]]? It is just a proposal, so if you see a problem, please redo it. I am not entirely sure about the place for the "Notice" section. Is it required to stay on top of the page? [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 10:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
::Hi Rfc! Thank you, glad you like the redesign :-) I really like your changes too, but for now the copyright notice needs to stay where it is - although I'm getting confirmation from the developers. We are able to change certain things on the front page, but I'm worried about the copyright notice. I love the fact you've moved the "mission statement", that will stay where it is, but for now the copyright will have to stay unmoved. Nice work though! I will let you know when I get a reply to my email about further changes and we can take it from there. Also, suggestions for the slogan after "Welcome to Marspedia!" will be gratefully received, not sure if "''The collaborative resource for building a colony on the Red Planet.''" reads that well... Keep up the superb work! I've been reading your new articles and they are superb, I look forward to seeing more! Did you take a major in Mars settlement design?? Certainly looks like it ;-) Cheers, -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 20:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
:::Does a "major in Mars settlement design" really exist? No, I am not, but I am used to design complex telecommunication systems, including some system engineering. I would love to do "Mars settlement design" fulltime, but I guess this is not good for earning the money I need for living (on Earth for the time beeing;-). -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:13, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

::::I really wish it did exist! I think the Mars Foundation once had a volunteer who took an engineering course in settlement design, but I dont think he's with us any more. There are ways to make a little cash from Mars settlement concepts, but it's mainly educational. Have a look at our site: [http://www.marshome.org/grants.php http://www.marshome.org/grants.php] to see what can be awarded. Really only useful for students at the moment, but we are hoping to develop funding eventually. -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 20:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

===List of Lists===
The List of Lists exists solely for site development. I've hopefully answered some of your questions about it and copied the discussion over to the talk page for List of Lists. Ask more questions and propose things (or leap into action for that matter), just note that I may not respond for quite a few hours. It's daybreak here and I've been up since yesterday... --[[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 12:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
:Thanks for explaining. Sweet dreams ... -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 14:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

===Blocking repeated bot offenders===
Hey Rfc. Thanks for the idea to block the MER category and Exobiology page - only registered users can edit them now. Between us we probably reverted a hundred edits! At least these pages should be quiet for a month (I put a 1 month limit on the block to see if that is enough).

Sorry I've been a little quiet of late, my laptop crashed last week and it looks like it's dead now, so i'm limited to using the family backup PC for now until I get a new machine. Any problems, I always have access to my email and will be checking Marspedia daily.

Hope you are well and having a nice Christmas in Germany :-) -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 12:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

===Featured Article===
Hi Rfc. Thanks for the info on the MarsDrive article, will get to the bottom of who posted it :-)

I have changed the featured article on the front page to the [[Greenhouse]] article you added a lot of new concepts to. Have a look. I used one of your diagrams as I thought it was most descriptive :-) Enjoy!

Take care and catch you soon [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 16:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

:Yes, it sprang into my eye, and I feel it's a great honor:-) Besides, "funerals and burials" seems to be double. Perhaps, ''burial'' is the better word, for it is closer to the act carried out in the greenhouse. Hope you had a great season, as well! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 07:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Rfc! Long time no see! I've been away for so long, I was forgetting how to wiki... looks like things have been moderately quiet over here, but I thought I'd change the "featured article" on the front page. Now I'm back, I think it's high time to re-invigorate this project, especially with Phoenix landing on Mars last week. Will hopefully see you soon! Hope you are well :-) -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 00:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

:Hi Ian, welcome back! I too had not much time during the last few months, but I tried to keep an eye on Marspedia at least. I have tried to find a payed job in the planetary research field, but I was not successful near my home. Besides I have talked to many people about the topic, but most people are simply not interested, some even find it a waste of money. So I guess we have to continue with only a few enthusiasts in our spare time, and hopefully we can generate additional attraction by our work here. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

===General===
Hi Rfc. Good news, I now have a new laptop up and running so I hope to be a bit more active on Marspedia! I have some catching up to do, some superb articles have appeared, I'd better get reading. Hope all is good with you. -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 12:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
:Hi Ian, congratulations! Laptops are pretty useful, but I don't like their keyboard layout. A bunch of new ''open issues'' have appeared too. It's funny to see how little we know, once we go a little deeper into realization aspects. We could need the help of some specialists (e.g. geologists, chemists, biologists, etc.). And my impression is, the global number of people interested in Martian settlements is less than a hundred, or so. Very few of them seem to have even recognized the emerging of the Marspedia project.
:I am looking forward to January 30th, when the asteroid ''2007 WD5'' crosses the Martian orbital trajectory. There is a tiny chance to hit Phobos ... -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 15:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

==captcha code==

Dear RFC, thanks for the captcha code on lunarpedia. Alas I do not have php access, so cannot do anything with it. Only MikeD has php access. Thanks. [[User:Cfrjlr|Charles F. Radley]] 03:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

:Hi Charles, I have asked [[user:Ioneill|Ioneill]] to install the PHP code, for he ‎is a Bureaucrat too. --[[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
::You need to be way more than a Bureaucrat to install or upgrade extensions. And if I recall correctly, [[user:Ioneill|Ioneill]] is way more than a Bureaucrat, he can correct me if I'm wrong or get reminders of usernames and passwords if I'm right.
::However, I will be conducting some long overdue maintenance this weekend.
::- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 06:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi James, can you please help with [[Marsp:User_talk:Ioneill#gibberish from bot net|this]]? --[[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi again, there are new bot attacks in both Lunarpedia and Marspedia, and I wonder whether it is less work to install the [[Marsp:Marspedia:Captcha|new captcha trigger]] or to revert the bot's edits over and over. As fas as I understand you are the only person keeping the passwords for php access. It should take only a few minutes to insert the green parts:
# Logon to the machine where the wikimedia software is running.
# Find the files ConfirmEdit.php, ConfirmEdit.i18n.php, ConfirmEdit_body.php.
# Be sure the contents of the files match.
# Create a backup copy of the files.
# Insert the green parts using vi or prepare the files on your PC and ftp them.
# Check the effect. If you try to change the first letter in a page a captcha should pop up on clicking the "save page" button.
That should be all. You can count on my assistance, if needed. Cheers! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 10:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I ''don't'' have them. They're all in a text file on a hard drive that may be complete toast that can only run on a specific notebook of mine that may also be complete toast. {{lunarp|User:Dcarson|Dana Carson}} and {{lunarp|User:Mdelaney|Mike Delaney}} both have these passwords last I checked, however. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 10:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

== vacation ==

I'll be on vacation for a few days, without access to the internet. Don't worry about my temporary absence. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:44, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
:Have a good time! A break from the internet is a good thing now and then. --[[User:Laertes|Nate]] 23:05, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

== A problem on Lunarpedia ==
Anonymous IP's have edited Strangelove's User:talk page with no response. There is a new user account that has been started in the Russian language. I suspect illegal activity abusing Lunarpedia's undefended condition. I suggest the temporary prohibition of new accounts on Lunarpedia until this gets sorted out. There should be a policy of english language only on Lunarpedia pages if that policy does not exist already. This is a crisis that I hope we can come through.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:17, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
I am sorry that I am not in position to take on administrative responsibilities for Lunarpedia at present. I am willing to look into what would be needed. Anonymous edits at Lunarpedia should also be temporarily disabled.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:37, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
:Since I am only a common user like you, I can not really help. But I am sure the two sysops, you have left a message to, will take appropriate action soon. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 19:27, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
== An article to delete ==
I wrote a new article titled "Solar heat engine." I was unaware of the article Solar concentrator at the time. A portion of what I wrote fit as part of a sub point "Thermal Engines" under "Utilization of Focused Solar Radiation" in the article "Solar concentrator" in the category "Energy" in the category "Technology" in the category "Settlements" in the category "Main." It is not the way I would have arranged categories, but that is how they are and it is best to just fit into the current structure unless someone wants to do a whole reorganization of the site. So, my article is now redundant and hanging in no category. Please delete my article, "Solar heat engine." It can be found in my contributions. Thanks for your consideration.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:27, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
:Hi Farred, I have placed a note on [[Deletion]]. I can not delete articles myself, because I do not have sysop permission. Hopefully, one of the sysops drops in and stumbles on it. The categories tree is not really good, indeed. I, too, feel it needs some rearrangement. Please feel free to do it. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 10:22, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
::Thanks, I now remember that putting a note on the Deletion page is what I should have done. I am not the best at Categorizing articles, but even I could make modest improvements on the present structure, if I were confident of the Wiki techniques. I must learn new things in my old age, better late than never.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
:The easiest way to create a new category is to place a category tag of a non-existing category on an article's page, which you want to categorize. Then follow the link that appears on the bottom of the article's page and you will find yourself in the middle of an edit pane. To find out what to type in this edit pane, you may have a look into some existing category page, with the edit mode activated (click on the edit tab). The same principle works for article pages as well. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:59, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
::After considering the problem of what Wiki techniques to use and reading your advice, all that is left to do is study the present category arrangement to become familiar enough with it to actually make an improvement. I will propose a change when I come up with one. Do not hold your breath waiting for it.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:04, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

== non Mars related advertising on Marspedia site ==
Hello Rfc,

New User:4400 has put a link to Puma shoes on his user page. I do not think this is the sort of contribution Marspedia seeks. I do not know if the corporation has anything to do with this. I could start with a comment on User:4400's talk page, but editing User:4400's user page may be necessary. I thought I would seek your input.[[User:Farred|Farred]] 01:45, 4 July 2010 (UTC) Jarogers took care of it. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 15:00, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

== The spelling of aluminium ==
Hello Rfc:

A new user on Lunarpedia, Jotagiraldez, is apparently very productive and talented. One thing he changed that I would disagree with is the spelling of aluminum being changed to aluminium, the British variant that my spell checker flags as an error. I give an argument for the old spelling on the <nowiki> [[Talk:Aluminium]] </nowiki> page if you care to look. I would like to notify as many people as might care about this. You seem to have taken some interest in Lunarpedia in the past and the issue might come up on Marspedia in the future.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 17:07, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

: My spell checker (The Firefox browser) poses the same like yours, so I have the same problem. In my mind there are two contrary argumentations: 1. The [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aluminum same discussion] took place in Wikipedia in December 2002, and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aluminum&redirect=no Aluminum] has been a mere redirect page on Wikipedia ever since. So Wikipedia could be used as a reference. 2. Probably, the majority of Mars and Moon flight enthusiasts live in the US, which may be proved by the [[Public interest#Mars Society |Mars Society membership log]]. After all, it is not an easy question. And there is another thought that occurred to me: We should avoid any distress for that productive and talented user on Lunarpedia. The preference of a spelling variant may not be worth it. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:11, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

::I have followed your advice in a reply to User:Jotagiraldez. Thanks. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:11, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

==The references for fluoride==
In [[Dental caries]] I made an effort for references for necessary chemical elements being on Mars as you suggested. Do you think that is sufficient? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 05:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
:How does ''"fluorine has not been discovered"'' and ''"The necessary chemical elements are on Mars"'' fit together? Wouldn't it be better changed to ''"The necessary chemical elements may be found on Mars later on"'' or something like this? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:51, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
::::It is the principal ores of fluoride that have not been discovered. Fluoride is not so abundant that we would expect it to be noticed in the first analysis of Martian sand and rock but the expectation that the elemental composition of Mars is similar to Earth's is based on sound science. From the nature of fluorine we would not expect it to be drawn into Mars' core like siderophiles. It would not disappear like volatiles from Luna because it does not primarily form volatiles and Mars does not loose volatiles anyway. Since fluorine is the 13th most abundant element on Earth it should not be absent from Mars. It is conceivable that fluorine is so rare on Mars that it can not be extracted economically, but this would require scientists to rework some basic theories of the formation of the solar system. The idea that Mars would need to import fluoride from Earth forever is such an unlikely possibility that I would say it is not worth mentioning. Perhaps we can change the article from "chemical elements are on Mars" to "chemical elements are expected to exist on Mars" and change "it will be cheaper to extract" to "should be cheaper to extract". What do you think? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
:Agreed! Thank you. It is not such an important thing. I just stumbled over it. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:39, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
::OK, will do. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 08:57, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

== Error creating thumbnail ==
Hello James, there is a permanent "Error creating thumbnail" problem on Marspedia. Example: http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Charcoal
I am sure this is a software bug or configuration problem, that has arisen with one of the last updates or administrational activities. I am afraid, this is really annoying for anyone who wants to do a contribution. Who can fix this? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:24, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

:The problem also exists on Lunarpedia and probably all of the wikis. Unfortunately, we're all completely overwhelmed by the new website and the hosting migration. Last I checked we were very likely going to be migrating the wikis as well. Please fasten your safety belts. The ride may get bumpier in the next couple of months... -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 02:05, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

==Artificial intelligence article==
I have made changes in the [[Artificial intelligence, automated industry and colonizing Mars|artificial intelligence article]]. Do you consider it an improvement? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 01:29, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
:Better, yes. And yet, the main idea points to a kind of expensive high-tech economy. It is an interesting article after all, a good starting point for thinking. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:02, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
::I intended an expensive high-tech economy. Considering the difficulties of mining ice to get water, freezing the carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere to get nitrogen, and the entirely artificial basis of agricultural and atmosphere maintenance; I am not convinced that an exclusively low-tech colony on Mars is possible. You would not be able to have a black smith hammering out the pistons and cylinders of a mining machine that carries both fuel and oxygen tanks. There is a place for low-tech activities, but I do not think they can fill all needs. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 03:47, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

== Editting Deletion ==
Thanks for sorting out the finished items and deleting them. It made it easier for me to delete a batch of the rest. I had forgotten all about that list. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 01:07, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
:Thanks for doing all the cleanup work. The items in chapter "Articles for deletion" contain only empty pages from spammers. Not real user's pages. I think those can be deleted as well. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 21:14, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
::The section <nowiki>==Articles for deletion==</nowiki> is now also "(nothing to do)" - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:54, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

== What are havaries? ==
There is a link that you put into the article [[Genetic engineering]] that leads to the article [[Fail-save]]. What is the meaning of the rendered text in the link, "havaries"? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:54, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Deletion

2013-10-04T00:38:55Z

Farred: remove completed items

User talk:Rfc

2013-10-03T01:07:44Z

Farred: thanks

Deletion

2013-10-03T00:59:26Z

Farred: remove completed items

Although we want to have all material due to [[Main_Page#Marspedia Policies|Marspedia Policies]] there are some cases making the deletion of articles, images or categories necessary. These are:

* Somebody creates an article, image or category with a misspelled name inadvertently. When she/he becomes aware of it, she/he wants to get rid of it.
* Two articles on the same subject are merged. Usually a [[Marspedia:Redirection|redirection]] is the right thing to do, but in certain cases one of the names might be useless.
* A category might become useless after a change in the [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Category:Main category tree].
* An article, picture or category has been posted by a vandal.
* An article or picture has been created (maybe unwittingly) in violation of copyright.

Anybody can nominate an article, image or category for deletion by just listing it in the appropriate section below. The deletion itself can only be done by a user with sysop permission. The deletion log can be viewed [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=delete&user=&page= here].

==Articles for deletion==

*[[User_talk:Iphal1710]] spam -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 12:38, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
*[[User_talk:Rethoff1758]] spam -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 02:36, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
*[[User:Physician123]] spam -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 14:59, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
*[[User_talk:Motagc1239]] spam -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 09:28, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
*[[User_talk:Esphy1638]] spam -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 09:05, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
*[[User_talk:Plimdirt1754]] spam -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 09:20, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
*[[User_talk:Treatal1849]] spam -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 23:24, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
*[[User_talk:Privic1276]] spam -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 11:29, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
*[[User_talk:Rockthol1415]] spam -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 20:17, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
*[[User_talk:Ferla1578]] spam -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 19:41, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
*[[User:Jobdescriptions]] spam -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 19:41, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

==Images for deletion==

==Categories for deletion==

==Redirects for deletion==
*[[Mars 105]] and [[Mars-105]] (Dead redirect pages. These redirect pages have names that actually do not exist.)

==Request for cleanup==
*[[Marspedia:About]] - SysOP needs to undo edit by [[User:Silverlady100|Silverlady100]] - not possible to revent due "This page has been locked to prevent editing"

[[Category:Cleanup]]

Mission concepts

2013-10-02T11:39:37Z

Farred: replace link to deleted article

This article collects different '''mission concepts''' for a [[manned mission]] to [[Mars]]. The purpose is to compare the concepts and point out the differences. The financial aspect is in focus.

== [[Direct cargo mission]] ==
A direct cargo mission will be vital in the [[Unmanned setup of a whole settlement]] of a colony, in resupplying an [[Earth-supported colony]], and delivering repair parts to a [[semi-autonomous colony]].

===Financial expenditure===

== [[Colonization mission]] ==
A type of [[manned one-way mission|one-way mission for colonization]], utilizing a man-rated version of the direct cargo mission.

===Financial expenditure===

== [[Manned resupply mission]] ==
A two-way manned mission to resupply a [[semi-autonomous colony]] or a manned outpost.

===Financial expenditure===

== [[Phobos boost mission]]-article in development ==
An unmanned mission to the moon Phobos, using a VASIMR drive to slowly spiral it out into a higher orbit.

===Financial expenditure===

== [[Mars Direct]] ==
A plan by [[Robert Zubrin]], the head of the Mars society, to send people to Mars and back.

===Financial expenditure===

===Mars for less===
Basically Mars Direct, but with the parts broken up so that they can be launched on Medium Lift Launch Vehicles (MLLVs), such as the Ariane V, Delta IV and Proton.

===Financial expenditure===

== Aldrin cycler ==
Mission architecture by second person to walk on the moon, Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin, to have a habitat, a cycler, in a continuous orbit between Mars and Earth.<ref>[http://buzzaldrin.com/space-vision/rocket_science/aldrin-mars-cycler/ Buzz Aldrin ''Aldrin Mars Cycler'']</ref>

===Financial expenditure===

== References ==
<references/>

== External links ==

== See also ==
* [[People from Earth to Mars in 30 days]]

[[Category:Manned Missions]]
[[Category:Concepts]]

Template:SettlementIndex

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|-
! style="color:#feeadf;width:100%;background-color:#7F0000;font-size:10pt" colspan="2" |
 [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Template:SettlementIndex v] · [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Template_talk:SettlementIndex d] · [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Template:SettlementIndex&action=edit e][[:Category:Settlements|Manned Missions to Mars]]
|-

|style="font-size:10pt;text-align:right;padding:3px 10px 3px 3px" |'''[[:Category:Concepts|Concepts]]:'''
|[[:Category:Greenhouse|Greenhouse]] · [[:Category:Settlements|Settlements]] · [[:Category:Regions|Locations]] · [[:Category:Concepts|General]]
|-

|style="font-size:10pt;text-align:right;padding:3px 10px 3px 3px" |'''[[:Category:Hazards|Hazards]]:'''
|[[:Category:Space Weather|Space Weather]] · [[:Category:Climate|Climate]] · [[:Category:Hazards|General]]
|-

|style="font-size:10pt;text-align:right;padding:3px 10px 3px 3px" |'''[[:Category:Technology|Technology]]:'''
|[[:Category:Hi-tech|Hi-Tech]] · [[:Category:Lo-tech|Lo-Tech]] · [[:Category:Energy|Energy]] · [[:Category:Spaceflight science|Spaceflight science]] · [[:Category:Communication|Communication]] · [[:Category:Technology|General]]
|-

|style="font-size:10pt;text-align:right;padding:3px 10px 3px 3px" |'''[[:Category:Human Considerations|Human Considerations]]:'''
|[[:Category:Economics|Economics]] · [[:Category:Health|Health]] · [[:Category:Governance|Governance]] · [[:Category:Trade|Trade]] · [[:Category:Law|Law]] · [[:Category:Social|Social]]

|}

<noinclude>[[Category:Tag Templates]]</noinclude>

National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA)

2013-10-02T11:24:48Z

Farred: remove unneeded red link

[[Image:Nasa.jpg|thumb|200px|right|The NASA logo.]]

==Overview==
The '''National Aeronautics and Space Administration''' (NASA) is based in the United States of America. NASA is responsible for the nation's space program and provides funding for various [[aeronautics]], space and research institutions.

==Plans and statements==
When Chris Scolese displaced Mike Griffin as acting administrator in January 2009 he announced a shift in the agency's direction, bringing astronauts to [[Mars]], abandoning plans towards a base on [[Luna]].<ref>http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17052-nasa-may-abandon-plans-for-moon-base.html</ref>

==References==
<references/>

==Interwiki==
*[[lunarp:NASA]]

{{stub}}

[[Category:Organizations]]

Settlement Strategies

2013-10-02T11:12:04Z

Farred: remove link to deleted page

The colonization of [[Mars]] can be planned and performed in various ways. This article wants to line out basic '''colonization strategies''' with the final goal to establish a sustainable, self reliant Martian colony, that can exist and even thrive [[independence from Earth|independently from Earth]].

==Aspect of physical independence==
===Introduction===
The long term maintenance of complex equipment requires a huge number of persons. At a minimum, they will need to replace or repair critical components, such as life support, [[Limited medical care in an autonomous colony|medical technology]], [[food]] production, etc. It is hard to imagine that this can be done without [[electronics]] and [[:category:chemistry|chemistry]]. At least some technology must be maintained, for the Martian [[environmental conditions]] do not allow people to live naked on Mars. So, there is a critical mass for the number of persons in an [[autonomous colony]].

Even if fully grown, a Martian colony is not considered a closed system without any input or output from and to Earth. It is rather an independent sovereign state, fully in control of its destiny. In that regard, it need not produce all of its needs locally. Even on [[Earth]], no sovereign state would think of eliminating all trade with other nations. However, such a Martian colony can not perform a trade volume that is comparable with any state on Earth, because the shipment costs are bigger by several orders of magnitude. Therefore, the [[interplanetary commerce]] between Earth and Mars will be reduced largely to data and services that can be transmitted via a [[radio link]].

===Strategy 1: Independence step by step===
An initial colony could start with a few persons. More colonists arrive later. In the beginning it does not supply all of its needs locally. Until critical mass is attained, the settlement will need to buy certain advanced technology. Interplanetary commerce is part of this strategy. It allows starting much simpler and earlier.

The first step is an [[Earth-supported colony]]. With further shipments it can be enhanced to a [[semi-autonomous colony]]. Finally the colony can be equipped with [[equipment for autonomous growth]].

===Strategy 2: Independence at once===
Due to the risk of an interruption of the colonization program, this strategy aims at the full independence from the very start. The first settlement is built in a very spartan, but nonetheless sustainable way, with all vital supplies produced locally. This first settlement [[Unmanned setup of a whole settlement|is constructed remote controlled]] and is fully functional before the first group of settlers head for Mars.

[[Hi-tech versus lo-tech|Spartan technology]] (and hence spartan standard of living) can reduce the critical mass. The inevitable food production is the most critical part. If that can be accomplished with simple technology, the critical mass could be small enough to gain independence at once. However, this includes [[mining]] and processing of all needed materials from [[local resources]].

==Aspect of transport and development==
===Introduction===

To get an idea of the transport costs of a physically independent industrial infrastructure, the current industrial infrastructure on Earth may be estimated as 1 billion workers and 100 tonnes of structure, equipment, and spare parts per worker -- round the total mass budget to 100 billion tonnes. It currently costs $200,000 to land a kilogram on Mars. Additional infrastructure is required for Mars (e.g. pressure vessels and agricultural illumination systems), so double the infrastructure required to 200 tonnes per worker. That comes to 440 million trillion dollars. To reduce this cost by one or two orders of magnitude by creative selection of industrial equipment and workers is probably easy: some of Earth's industry is redundant in terms of self-sufficiency and thus required only for a [[population]] of billions. One or two orders of magnitude drop in transport costs may also be possible in the long term. But this only reduces the cost to at least 44 thousand trillion dollars. To reduce these costs to a reasonable sum, i.e. to the range of tens to hundreds of billions of dollars, requires radical reduction in the size of the industrial infrastructure required, which requires radical redesign of the technology (Strategy 1), or it requires further radical reductions in transport costs (Strategy 2), or a combination of both.

===Strategy 1: Minimum transport and intelligent self development===

Shipping costs are probably lower for small scale machines than large scale machines, and the [[financial effort estimation|financial frame]] will always be tight. The perfect, but unrealistic, way to colonize Mars is sending a one-kilogram probe with a handful of nanobots, preparing the whole colony, before sending a second one-kilogram probe with a handful of frozen fertilized human eggs, etc. This science fiction scenario is, of course, not realistic, but can serve as an ideal to strive for: minimize the mass and volume that needs to be launched from Earth, both initially and on an ongoing basis, by maximizing the self-sufficiency of Mars' industrial and agricultural infrastructures. This probably requires a radical redesign of almost every piece of equipment, and a radical rethinking of industrial infrastructure generally. Lo-tech (see e.g. [[pneumatics]], [[hydraulics]]), small-scale-tech (see e.g. [[blacksmith]], [[brick]], [[glass]]), and flexible tech (see e.g. [[3D Printer]]) are promising approaches.

===Strategy 2: Mass transport of ready-to-use technology===

A colony needs large machinery for life support and further expansion. All machinery is shipped from [[Earth]] to Mars. Plans can be developed for massive colonization ships moving in repeated transfers between Earth and Mars without stopping. Only the cargo and passengers start and stop. Sending a complete industrial economy to Mars is theoretically possible. It just takes a long time, a launch volume much higher than current, or some combination of the two. See cost estimates above. For example, we might spend $100 billion per year for 4.4 million years to set up an independent Mars colony using the same industrial equipment and global-scale economy as Earth, by simply transporting all needed people, structures and equipment (minus one or two orders of magnitude for creative selection of a subset) over this period of time, without any redesign except to account for Martian environmental conditions (low gravity, near-vacuum, etc.) To be anywhere close to being viable, this strategy requires extremely radical reductions in transport costs, possibly from using [[ISRU]]-based propellants, suborbital reusable launch vehicles (RLVs) combine with tether-based orbital momentum transfer, and many other theoretically possible strategies. But then again, how can we do ISRU on such a massive scale without lots of equipment already in space? Catch-22.

===Strategy 3: Develop industry on Luna to support Mars colonization===
This is inspired by the 1970's idea of Gerard O'Neil to build massive solar power plants out of lunar materials. Developing Luna first can take advantage of Luna's unique advantages to provide a massive Mars colonization effort that may not be possible otherwise.

Luna has a lower gravity well than Mars or Earth and a high vacuum at surface level. Because of this there is a potential for a low cost electric launching of cargo from the moon to orbit that Mars and Earth will never be able to match. The cost was estimated as "pennies-per-pound" on the Mike Combs Space Settlement [http://space.mike-combs.com/spacsetl.htm#on_the_moon web site FAQ], the "Why not build solar power stations on the moon?" section. The actual cost per pound of such cargo launch will be heavily dependent upon the size of the market for launching cargo.

Luna has one face constantly turned toward earth so that a stationary antenna there could provide continuous real time communications with less than a three second round trip delay. This allows remote control industrial development from Earth without developing artificial computer intelligence to operate the industry 45 minutes without instructions on the latest developments as would be necessary for remotely controlled industry on Mars. The axial tilt with respect to the ecliptic is 1.5 degrees. So, there is a potential in the course of development of Luna's resources to establish a set of solar power stations within 46 kilometers of either pole linked in a grid such that there is always one of them in sunlight. The ambient vacuum makes efficient thermal insulation as easy as packing fine grains sifted from the regolith. The big advantage of industry on Luna is that it does not need to be a complete infrastructure that can support human beings for every task. Remotely controlled machines are being used on Earth with a growing range of complexity and function.<ref> http://www.lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Progress_in_Remotely_Operated_Equipment </ref> If as much effort were put into adapting machines to a lunar environment as has been put into adapting machines to an undersea environment, the designs for machines to develop lunar industry would likely be in hand. People on Luna will be few and do only those things for which people are especially capable.
Association with Luna can bring Mars into the market for building structures in Earth orbit before there is even a colony on Mars. Building an industry on Luna will be handicapped by the scarcity of volatiles on Luna but this can be remedied by establishing automated industry on Mars to distill the atmosphere, mine the permafrost at 50 degrees latitude and ship the products to orbit with one system and on to Luna with another. This is probably a simpler problem then building a complete industrial base for a colony, and it would be paid for out of returns from building structures in Earth orbit. Industry started on Mars without Luna would not be able to sell solar power plants to Earth to pay for the investment. It would have to rely on selling hypothetical patent rights of Martian colonists' inventions, gold shot out of an electric cannon to Earth if any is found on Mars, real estate sales and such.

Benefits to Mars colonization that would result from full industry on Luna would include the ability of Luna to ship tanks of liquid oxygen to low Earth orbit for 40 cents a pound to use as rocket fuel. This low cost of transportation would allow considerably higher production costs for oxygen on Luna than on Earth while still having a much lower total delivered cost. The same is true for materials to construct a Mars colonization ship in orbit and a space based solar power plant to be sent to operate in orbit of Mars. If industrialization of Luna is successful, these benefits could be provided to Mars in trade for volatiles to Luna more cheaply than they could be provided by any conceivable arrangement of trade between one region on Mars and another.

'''Some criticisms of this approach:'''

Removing the task of industrial development to the moon mostly just switches the location of the problem. The strategy above is simply to move the problem of developing self-sustainable space industry, given high launch costs on earth, to a new locale then introduce trade between Mars and the new locale. But we can divide industry and trade between places on Mars too: if trade between Mars and the moon could solve the problem so could trade between different places on Mars. The supposed benefits of teleoperation are hypothetical and there is no strong reason to assume it would allow the needed radical reduction in the mass of industrial infrastructure to be launched. No designs for teleoperated machines are presented that would have this effect of radically reducing the mass of the industry that needs to be launched from earth. If they were, they would form part of the general alternative to radical lowering of launch costs, namely radical redesign of the industrial infrastructure. Automation indeed is probably an important element of the radical redesign of industrial technology that will be needed.

To get to the lunar surface from earth still costs within the same order of magnitude as to get to the surface of Mars (currently about $100,000/kg to the lunar surface vs. about $200,000/kg to the Martian surface). Indeed the industrial development problem on the moon is worse because it is scarce in volatiles which are crucial and voluminous inputs to industry. On earth where voluminous water is needed industry locates next to the water. Trying to get them out of Mars' gravity well all the way to the moon may not be economically viable, any more than reversing the course of a river by putting the water into a large fleet of trucks and driving back to the top of the mountains where the river comes from would be an economically viable way to conserve water. It is also easier to think about and solve the self-sufficiency problem on a location like Mars where volatiles and other industrial inputs are both readily available.

The mass driver upon which the effort depends is only a design. It has never been tested as a complete device. If things proceed as supporters of raising an industrial base on Luna by its bootstraps hope, it will take a long time, probably in the neighborhood of fifty years before first financial return. Importing volatiles from Mars requires that both bodies be industrialized at the same time with remotely operated equipment. That causes more complex planning requirements. Dealing only with Mars development avoids having to import elements which are scarce on Luna. Mars has all elements necessary for industrial development available in usable concentrations and quantities.

===Strategy 4: [[Genetic engineering|Genetically engineer crops]] to grow on Mars===
The amount of equipment needed to be transported to Mars could be reduced if crops could spread themselves on the natural surface of Mars. The lichen which grows in extreme conditions on Earth could perhaps be modified to grow on Mars in the current conditions of the 50 degree latitude region. It could incorporate an internal antifreeze such as polyethylene glycol. Various sorts of crops could be designed to incorporate various useful substances in their tissues. When these crops have spread themselves around Mars, colonists would come and harvest them to support their colony. This might greatly reduce the need for industrial infrastructure as a prerequisite to support agriculture.

No plant or lichen genetically engineered or otherwise has ever been grown in vacuum or in near-vacuum conditions like those on Mars, and it is far from clear that this is possible. The chemical and radiation environments on the Martian surface probably also present major hurdles for this approach. This strategy would take many years to first develop crops to grow on Mars and then to plant them and let them spread. The plant released into the wild might mutate into an undesirable form that would not support a colony.

A variation of this strategy is to genetically engineer a hollow tree that can serve as a pressure vessel for smaller life forms inside it. A problem with this approach is how to protect its leaves while giving them sunlight. The coconut tree Protects its seed from the harsh environment of the open ocean with a hard case. By combining genetic engineering with selective breeding, it might be possible to develop a plant that grows a little green house for each leaf and each seed. Seeds would need to be packed with a considerable amount of food and water to get a new plant started on Mars, as coconuts are packed with food and water to start new coconut trees. Starting plants in the most Mars-like environment that they can survive, then developing plants to grow in more and more Mars-like conditions, people might be able to develop a plant that could grow on Mars.

While Earthly plants store sugars and starches in their tissues for use during times of darkness, and they store complete nutrition for their offspring in seeds; they do not store oxygen. They use it from the reservoir of the Earth's atmosphere. Plants that could grow in the ambient Martian conditions would need special tissues to store oxygen. They would also need to develop a flexible water impermeable skin with a sort of window that while remaining impermeable to water would allow carbon dioxide to diffuse through, another sort of window to allow oxygen to be excreted and another sort of window to be translucent. The roots would need to totally engulf particular grains of soil in order to absorb minerals from them without losing water. The adaptations for plants' survival on Mars would be many, but the result would be plants whose seeds are a source of food, water, and oxygen.

==Aspect of finance==
===Introduction===
Frontier settlements are capital investments from which investors expect some utility. Rarely small amounts are donated to altruistic causes (e.g. expanding humanity). Governments invest small sums in science and larger sums in national security. Most commonly, investors demand a profitable return from their investments. The sooner a colony becomes financially self-sufficient, the less investment is required, and thus the sooner an investment is likely to be made in the first place. Since radical elimination of all imports is probably impossible in the short run (see above), a colony is much more likely to be financed if it can generate exports that match or exceed the costs of imports. Since imports are costly, the exports must be valuable. They must also be affordably transportable to Earth: high value and low mass.

===Initial Capital Investments===
The colony requires equipment sufficient equipment to sustain agriculture to feed and clothe the personnel, to generate exports sufficient to pay for imports, and to make at least the heavy replacement parts for the equipment itself. The colony should also preferably grow from an early capital investment rather than continuing to require massive equipment transports from earth in order to expand operations.

===Imports/Expenditures===
Treating the colony as a single financial entity, its ongoing expenditures will be equal to the cost of ongoing imports.

===Exports/Revenues/Profits===
Treating the colony as a single financial entity, its ongoing revenues will be equal to the ongoing proceeds from exports. Profits in a given period will be equal to revenues minus expenditures in that period. In the single financial entity model the profit of the colony in a period thus equals proceeds from exports minus the cost of imports during that period.

===Net Present Value (NPV) and Internal Rate of Return (IRR) of Investments===
Given a series of cash flows, for example annual expenditures and revenues over a period of thirty years, and an interest rate, the NPV function computes the net present value of these cash flows at the start of the series. It is in other words the net present value of profits to be expected by the investors. NPV should exceed the initial capital investment (or alternatively, if capital investments are counted as cash flows, NPV should be positive).

In NPV analysis risk is represented by increasing the interest rate (the "risk premium"). If risk is not fairly evenly distributed over time NPV is less accurate and real options analysis is required for both for accuracy and for designing better strategies. However for most purposes NPV is fine, and it's also easier (you can use a spreadsheet, whereas real options analysis requires more sophisticated software).

In the model treating the colony as a single financial entity, the cash flows in a period are just the proceeds from exports (positive) and the costs of imports (negative) in that period. The net present value of the ongoing exports and imports should exceed the initial investment given an interest rate that includes a risk premium reflecting the risks of the financial failure of the colony.

The internal rate of return (IRR) of an investment gives us the rate of return as an output instead of the interest rate as an input. The initial capital investment is treated as a cash flow in the first period(s).

For more information, see your spreadsheet's help pages for "NPV", "IRR", and related functions.

==Golden Mars scenario==
===Introduction===
We need concrete strategic and financial scenarios to work with. Since colonizing Mars is currently far from economically viable, we have to make some hypothetical, but plausible, assumptions, in order to develop scenarios that are financially and otherwise strategically viable. Here is one, the Golden Mars scenario:

(1) The same geological processes that formed gold ores on Earth once operated on Mars and have left there concentrations of gold on its surface not seen by humans since they first started finding the easy pieces on Earth c. 4000 BC. In particular, 1,000 kg of equipment on the Martian surface can find and ship to the Mars spaceport 10 kg of gold nuggets and flakes per year. Some technological goals to strive for: 10,000 kg of imported equipment (or 100,000 kg of native equipment, because these would be the bulkier parts) requires one person to operate and maintain it, and that person requires another 10,000 kg of equipment to support him. Some of aforementioned equipment should be made on Mars if that increases the economic return, which requires further labor, otherwise it should be imported.

(2) Because of the development of [[ISRU]]-based propellants, the costs of transport from Earth have been reduced by two orders of magnitude (to $2,000/kg) and the costs of transport from Mars surface to Earth surface are $1,000/kg.

(3) Plausible assumptions can be made about making things from Martian raw materials, as long as every part (use parts lists) and every material can be accounted for all the way back to through the supply chain (really supply tree, it keeps branching at every step) to Martian mines.

(4) The price of gold on Earth is about the same as today: $1,100/oz. * 1/28 oz/g * 1,000 g/kg = $39,000/kg. The market for gold production on Earth is about $100 billion/year, and the above-ground inventories are in the trillions of dollars, so you can produce at least $50 billion/year worth of gold before you start saturating the market and the price drops. (To be more precise about this, look up research on the supply/demand curve for gold, I'm sure economists must have researched this many times).

Can you design this Mars colony to be profitable, and thus attract investors?

===Make vs. Import Tradeoffs===

===Initial Capital Investments===

===Imports/Expenditures===

===Exports/Revenues===

===Net Present Value of Investments===

== Reference ==
<references/>

== Links ==

* [http://journalofcosmology.com/Contents12.html The Human Mission to Mars — Colonizing the Red Planet (The Greatest Adventure in the History of Humanity Edited by Joel S. Levine, Ph.D., NASA, Co-Chair, Human Exploration of Mars Science Analysis Group (HEM-SAG) of the Mars Exploration Program Analysis Group (MEPAG).; Rudy Schild, Ph.D., Center for Astrophysics, Harvard-Smithsonian In Association and Collaboration with the Mars Society ]

[[Category: Concepts]]
[[Category: Manned Missions]]
[[Category: Settlements]]

Talk:Old Home

2013-10-01T20:32:50Z

Farred: /* Wikipedia based articles */ talk

This page has been protected to avoid anonymous attacks.

=Main Page development=
I have made an attempt to upgrade the front page to improve design, ease of use and accessability to the wiki. I have tried to focus on accessibility for new users as we need to increase online interest in our efforts.

Some recent updates:
*Inclusion of a "[[Featured articles]]" on the front page (see [[user:Ioneill]] for development details).
*Creating [[Marspedia:About]] page to move bulk text from main page.
*Creating "Marspedia News" section on front page - for development purposes (i.e. new site developments/announcements), '''not''' to advertise new content.

Unresolved areas:
*Copyright notice, should it be moved to a less-prominent position?

For now, over to you! -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 04:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

<hr/>

:I like the new appearance. It is better than ever! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 07:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

::It looks wonderful; I can't wait to steal it for Lunarpedia. 8) The copyright rules notice is too large and unwieldy, and as you may have noticed, in over a year I've not figured out a more compact solution that imparts the required information. Maybe a terse summary with a link to a more detailed version? How much can we pare down the summary if so? --[[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 08:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

:::Hi James, I have seen several occurrences of "8)" in your talk. What does it mean? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

::::It's an emoticon, akin to ''':-)'''. I wear glasses, thus the eight instead of the colon... --[[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 11:28, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

:Cool, glad to get people's opinion on it. Kinda melded the Wikipedia format with our own - hopefully we'll be a unique set of wikis in time. I've been looking at the copyright notice, and I think we can work with what we have for now. We must keep in mind, we are in the development phase of this project, so there are going to be a lot of rough edges. As we will (hopefully) have a continuous, and increasing influx of articles, newcomers will need to read the GFDL terms and conditions first. Also, having the copyright notice there is in keeping with Lunarpedia etc., so it's a good visual aid to see we are all in the same "club"!
:James, feel free to copy any of the design aspects and stick them into Lunarpedia, will be nice to see a cool blue and grey version 8) I think the divs and tables are up to par. Seems to be formatted correctly in Firefox and IE, so there shouldn't be too many issues with other operating systems. I've noticed a slight loss in border on the right side of the copyright notice when using FF, will get that fixed.
:-- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 20:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

== Wikipedia based articles ==
I personally support the public domain license, but isin't it alot easier to just fork all the required articles from Wikipedia, then edit them from there? Many articles should be almost complete copies from Wikipedia. Having a "GFDL" namespace seems confusing. [[User:Nawi|Nawi]] 11:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
:I don't think there are many articles that should be almost complete copies from Wikipedia. Every Marspedia article is written in the context of building a settlement on Mars, with special orientation to the Martian circumstances. When I started to work for Marspedia I had a similar idea - and an enlightening [[User_talk:Ioneill#Contents from Wikipedia?|discussion with Ioneill]]. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
::How about "keystone" articles like the Mars Direct article, which Marspedia really should have ASAP? It certainly wouldn't need editing to make it more Mars-y! --[[User:Pete9804|Pete9804]] 19:15, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
:::I will echo Miros' advice below. If a Wikipedia article is what the reader would want send them to Wikipedia with a link in an external links section. Otherwise make an article your own work. That makes licensing requirements easier. We do not need the hashed up partly computer translated and retranslated work that spammers use to camouflage spam. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:32, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I suggest no copy-paste from Wikipedia. Simply type in your thoughts as new work and put a Wikipedia link as an external link. [[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 20:25, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

== Captcha ==
Can the captcha be disabled for registered users or something, because it's pretty annoying. [[User:Nawi|Nawi]] 15:12, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
:Hi Nawi, I agree with you. Since I am an ordinary user I can not change this, but I can give you some explanation about the working principle of the captcha. The ''"gibberish captcha"'' is designed to pop up if the first word of an article is going to be changed (Please see also [[Marspedia:Captcha]]). Also, a captcha pops up for edits that add URLs and for Userlogin. We implemented the ''"gibberish captcha"'' when we experienced frequent attacks by a bot inserting gibberish into Marspedia articles. This captcha works fine, but is certainly a bit annoying when creating new articles. Most edits, however, should not trigger this captcha, since most edits leave the article's first word as is. If you experience a different behaviour, please let me know. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 07:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Please disable the captcha. It is '''''EXTREMELY''''' annoying. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 13:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
:Possibly [[user:Strangelv|Strangelv]] can disable it for registered users, but I have no idea how to do it. Perhaps it is not possible for the captchas to distinguish registered users from IPs. After all we have to find a good balance of usability and security. If we had no captchas at all, we would get flooded with a torrent of automated spam (as we experienced before the activation of the captchas). -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

== Fountdation of an autonomous colony ==

Is the current FA going to stay on the Main Page forever? I swear is hasn't changed in the last 5 days. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 12:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
:The process of nomination and featuring is not maintained on a daily basis, because nobody is willing to spend the effort so far. For a history please see [[Featured articles]]. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 12:56, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

O.K. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 09:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

::If possible, could someone write a step by step guide to featuring an article? I mean the coding procedure. I have FTP access if such access is necessary to change the article. I also need to do so on Lunarpedia, but haven't had time to dig through the code to figure out a way to wing it without screwing things up. I doubt that future users will want to go through all of that. -- [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 07:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

:::Nevermind, I figured it out. You guys put your heads together and decide which article you think should be featured and then clear it with Ian. I have this talk paged watched, so I'll know if you post your final decision here. I'll do the grunt work if Ian finds himself otherwise occupied. -- [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 08:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

==Featured Article==
I would like to nominate [[Water]] as the next featured article, although it might be useful to quickly go over it and the most recent results from the lander to make sure it's up to date... -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 10:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
:Good idea. The ''Interplanetary Internet'' may be replaced by an other article. How about something contemporary? Proposal: [[Mars One]] or [[Curiosity]]? We could also change the ''Featured article'' to ''Currently in the news'' or ''Hot spot'' or ''Most interesting'' or ''In focus'', which does not necessarily refer to the high quality of the article. It might help to attract readers (and authors) who are interested in contemporary stuff. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 19:27, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

==Promotion==

I've just submitted Lunarpedia and Marspedia to the DMOZ ODP.

[http://www.dmoz.org/ http://www.dmoz.org/]

I recommend that you also submit them in order to increase traffic and speed up the process of our links being approved. ODP also populates these to other search engines. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 10:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

:Marspedia has been approved; I resubmitted Lunarpedia. [[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 16:36, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

= Program strengthening =

'''''Dear Colleagues,'''''

Your activity is close to us on spirit, we are glad to your successes.

We invite you to discuss the new practical idea of association in the unique program of which the mankind didn't know analogues. The given program has the working name «Otherwise continent» (in Russian - ''[http://ppark.livejournal.com/3678.html «Иной континент»]''). Idea being: to begin in different places of the Earth creation of [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Independence_from_Earth real planetary settlements], pertinent for conditions of the Moon, Mars, etc. and to offer in this independent settlements habitation and work for high-grade intelligent families.

It will allow to provide advancing development of new land culture and an infrastructure of interplanetary programs which shortly all the same become habitual for earth dwellers. I.e. we begin preventive preparation to grow roots on the planets through inclusion of such independent planetary settlements in a land economic turn, developing thus empty earths, applying renewed energy sources, progressive agrotechnologies, «new pedagogics» and many other innovations which still remain a rarity on the Earth.

Number of inhabitants can exceed and 3 thousand persons in each settlement

There doesn't exist any basic obstacles from the point of view of engineering-technological reserves for this way, both materials Marspedia, and our long-term researches testify it. But the basic alarm is caused by absence in plans and preparations of disembarkation to the planets qualitatively important for settling of planets of strategy – ''strategy of socio-culture dynamics''. This aspect is in especially powerfully developing by our scientists and designers. Mission of the given so-called '''''[http://ppark.livejournal.com/4837.html planetonautics (C)]''' ''strategy also consists in advancing development already on the Earth and at direct participation of all earth dwellers of culture of planetary dwelling …

I.e. for planetonautics priorities vary into how socio-culture drive technology’s development: socio-culture factors become a source of technological development, rather the reverse, as before, in astronautics, for example.

The program is supported by some companies and the research centers of Russia, now we search for partners in a consortium abroad. Their interest is clear: after all in the conditions of crisis such strategy will allow to open new applications for pertinent workings out from any of areas – the industries, astronautics, IT, social technologies, the pedagogic, robotics, transport, the different high technologies, many branches of fundamental and applied science etc., i.e. will suffice affairs on all. There will be new workplaces, families will not break up, new knowledge and technologies, social communications etc. All these workings out be required and inhabitants of independent settlements will be engaged, and superfluous products (energy, a foodstuff, new knowledge, techniques, etc.) will be on sale on a foreign market.

The business plan is developed for the basic land version of independent settlement of type «Solar farm», for three settlements drawings prepare, there is discussion at conferences and on the Internet, students etc. work over themes

We consider that the most suitable time has now come to pour in this strategy the large finance and to provide to it steady progress.

Details it suggested to discuss after your acknowledgment of basic interest.

Yours faithfully,

Nazym F. Sayfullin,

The co-ordinator of the program "Independent planetary settlements"

Moscow, Russia
--[[User:PPark|PPark]] 15:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

:Dear PPark, I am glad there are people like you all over the world, sharing the same enthusiasm to plan human settlements in places beyond the limits of Earth. Certainly we are interested in networking with your program "Independent planetary settlements". I'm going right ahead to create first links on the new article page [[IPS]]. Welcome aboard! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

User talk:Pete9804

2013-09-29T18:57:24Z

Farred: welcome? fix format

== welcome ==
Hi Pete, I think deleting <nowiki>[[Concept of the Different Continent]] would be an improvement. I could have notice the relevance of [[Cellulose]] if I had checked the <What links here> button. The Eden Project could be converted into a section of [[Greenhouse]]</nowiki>. You have made good suggestions and seem like a serious contributor. I wonder what caused you to start to contribute just now. Your work may not amount to much because I think The Mars Society intends to change the hosting of Marspedia and change the format somewhat. Perhaps you can ride along with the change. User:Strangelv knows more about this and is an administrator and bureaucrat for Marspedia. For myself, I intend to bail out of Marspedia and let it sink under the spam or swim as those with more authority than me desire. Deleting the spam is too much work. I have just been hanging on until I copy a few articles that I am specially interested in for my own reference. Your appearance has distracted me and slowed my departure. I wish you well. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:53, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

User talk:Pete9804

2013-09-29T18:53:52Z

Farred: Welcome?

== welcome ==
Hi Pete, I think deleting <nowiki>[[Concept of the Different Continent]]</nowiki> would be an improvement. I could have notice the relevance of [[Cellulose]] if I had checked the <What links here> button. The Eden Project could be converted into a section of [[Greenhouse]]</nowiki>. You have made good suggestions and seem like a serious contributor. I wonder what caused you to start to contribute just now. Your work may not amount to much because I think The Mars Society intends to change the hosting of Marspedia and change the format somewhat. Perhaps you can ride along with the change. User:Strangelv knows more about this and is an administrator and bureaucrat for Marspedia. For myself, I intend to bail out of Marspedia and let it sink under the spam or swim as those with more authority than me desire. Deleting the spam is too much work. I have just been hanging on until I copy a few articles that I am specially interested in for my own reference. Your appearance has distracted me and slowed my departure. I wish you well. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:53, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Geothermal energy

2013-09-29T04:48:30Z

Farred: copy edit

'''Geothermal energy''' is heat generated inside dense and rocky cosmic bodies. It can be generated by the immense pressure in the core of planets and created by nuclear processes and is constantly available with virtually no limit in time.

On [[Earth]] there are a few installations to use geothermal energy for heating and for production of electricity. On [[Mars]] there might be usable geothermal energy, as well. It is unknown how deep a Mars colony would need to drill for practical Geothermal energy. There are signs of geothermal energy, however.

==Signs and theories==

[[Mars Global Surveyor]] has found relatively fresh signs of flowing water in the [[Cerberus]] region near the equator of Mars. This probably happened 10 million years ago, which is geologically an extreme short time. Hopefully, the heat is still there in certain spots. <ref>[http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1997JBIS...50..187F Fogg, Martyn J.: The utility of geothermal energy on Mars]</ref>

==Open issues==
*Are there scientific theories about the inner temperature on Mars?
*Are there spots with usable geothermal energy? [[Needed explorations#Geothermal energy|Additional explorations]] on Mars are needed to get exact figures.

===References===
<references/>

[[Category: Geology]]
[[Category: Energy]]

User talk:Farred

2013-09-28T22:24:27Z

Farred: new user

Welcome to the flip side. :D - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 22:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:Happy to be here. Thanks. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
::I want to get a link to Mike Combs' space settlement FAQ to work, so I will try it here.
::Well, I tried it. It did not work. I removed it. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 04:56, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
How about that one: [http://space.mike-combs.com/spacsetl.htm#moon_mining Space settlement - What is there to mine on the moon?]? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 19:29, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
:I tried the new link put in by Spriditis. It works fine. It seems to me that links have a tendency to go bad with time. I think the link that I put in worked when I wrote it. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:20, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
::I used wiki tags [http://url_path url_title] - <nowiki>[http://url_path url_title]</nowiki>, You used just url.. maybe that was the case. -- [[User:Spriditis|Spriditis]] 15:01, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
:::Thanks --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

== SPAM ==
Hi! I help [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] on Lunarpedia, and we've developed some tools and methods to help us deal with spam.

One thing that we do is set the "reason" for deleting a spam page to just "spam." If the original text of the spam remains in any form, it's possible that the spammer will get paid for it and come back and bring his spammer buds along.

I believe Strangelv has installed his WHUMP tool here, which will auto-delete spam on new pages and block the creator. We'll be tweaking the lists of words, since WHUMP was originally created for lpedia, a political wiki, but I'm sure it will help us keep the spam under control here. Please do tell us common "spam indicator" words that you see in the spam you delete.

[[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 16:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:I am happy to see anyone fight the spammers. When I delete a spam page there is automatically a string of text that shows up in the recent changes as the first few bytes of text as part of the reason for deleting the page. This string is only in recent changes and is only available as long as the recent changes is available. Do you want me to erase this string too? I do not delete according to a particular set of words. I check if the posting has a link advertising something that is not Mars or if the text advertises something that is not Mars. In a few of the cases a connection to Mars could have been made if the user had any interest in Mars, but since the user is just a computer program, there is no effort to refer to colonizing Mars. The post is spam and it's history. If I do notice good spam indicator words, I'll let you know. Thanks for being part of the good effort. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

::I wonder how many legitimate articles are uncategorized -- on LPedia (not connected to Marspedia, Lunarpedia et al. -- it's a political party wiki) that's been the most reliable source for identifying garbage articles as Brian Holtz categorized the last remaining uncategorized pages in the main namespace. Let me wake up enough to start collecting lists of articles to delete and feed into WHUMP. Ideally I'd like to delete the party that posted them originally, but I may chicken out and just have it delete the articles. As WHUMP is flagged as a bot, its activities are hidden by default. Click on 'Show Bots' on Recent Changes to see if it's done anything recently. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 22:14, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:::Done; just a blanket delete with no effort to hunt down and ban the original author -- after al[l, at least one of those might have started legitimately. Moving on to uncategorized pages. The situation here is a lot less bad than I'd assumed from the plea for help. Well, except for the classified as an attack page bit.

:::I'm having trouble getting WHUMP's actions to show up in RecentChanges even with Show Bots selected though. Wait, going back to default and then pressing show bots it works. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 22:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

:::Have we run out of targets on Marspedia already? It may be time to move on to Exodictionary -- it's been getting slowly pummeled for awhile, although it may not be a large percentage as it has more articles than the rest of our wikis put together -- at least until I get Autostub1 working and crank out about 10,000 articles for Lunarpedia... -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 00:23, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
::::Congratulations, Strangelv, on getting WHUMP to work. I count 122 title only articles deleted. I did not hear about Marspedia being described as having an attack page. What is the trouble with an attack page? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 09:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

There are two sorts of SPAM: 
1. Manually inserted text, which seems not so frequent. 
2. New user accounts, obviously created by bot. Also, some exchange of whole paragraphs, probably carried out by bot. So, we need a better ''captcha'' to block the bots. Are you in contact with Dana Carson or Mike Delaney, who should be authorized to modify the wikimedia software? Strangelv may be in close contact with them. See also [[User talk:rfc#captcha code]]. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
:Well, I have been in contact with James Gholston and some others about the spam situation. I think people are doing as much as seems reasonable with captcha and automated spam removal. The spammers just seem to have some way of getting around the captcha with little effort. It may involve a work at home scam by which they con numerous poor people into doing their spamming. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

== [http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?client=tmpg&hl=ru&langpair=ru|en&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&u=http://inocont.net/&usg=ALkJrhi0tZ8DczDS3kY5_KeoktduNAaPFw InoCont] ==

Dear Farred! Thank you for your participation in the development of [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept|the concept of "InoCont"]] and the editorial work you are doing in this area.

As you know, the international scientific and creative program "Another Contin(g)ent» (www.inocont.net) is developing nearly 4 years, and our aims are to unite creative people of all countries to search for a vector of future discoveries and achievements in all spheres of activity both in space and on Earth. This is - a call for co-organizing an international experiment in the creation and testing of complex models of life and infrastructure of autonomous planetary settlements (APS).

Extended abstract concepts in the English language is available on the Marspedia (http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Another_Contin%28g%29ent_Concept ).

Most likely, you will see that our initiative is still evolving without external funding, receives no government support and investment, and relies solely on personal savings and the enthusiasm of volunteers.

We all believe that in an increasingly globalizing world, experiential understanding of the phenomenon of autonomy is necessary for regeneration of new socially significant meanings. This will not only introduce new ideas to solve the problem of initial survival, but also will open up innovative approaches in the development.

The "InoСont" Program relies on the principle of "from the complex – to a simple", which means the union of all the inhabitants of Earth in search of solutions for large-scale social settlements on the Moon, Mars and other objects in the solar system. It is able to rethink the problems of life on Earth and to strengthen the fundamental-project basis for innovative development.

For this paradoxal purpose we develop a unique methodology for forecasting design (FutureDesign) of socio-technological imperatives of development, which will focus on intermediate contests. The first one is planned under the title "UniCont" under the "Cultural Universiade-2013" during the XXVII Summer World Student Games in Kazan, Russia.

We believe that the development of the niche free competition will be extremely attractive to investors today. The Program provides competitive to attract investments for the implementation of the startups.

Development of information and the methodological basis of the experiment will focus on network semantic design, business-project games, musical improvization, simulations in virtual worlds and the creation of full-scale APS’ prototype architectural and engineering controls, etc. The achievement of high-level design specifications (and this is - more than half of the success of any innovation) will contribute to broad interdisciplinary projects and their testing in difficult climatic conditions of the Arctic, underwater, underground and other extreme environments.

Example of APS can become a good practice, working on a team project based on your scientific and cultural interests: that is suitable for extreme conditions, will be effective for milder conditions of the Earth.

All this requires special support from society and business, liders of culture, high-quality new partners.

Please help the program "InoСont" by your tremendous experience and recommendations, well-aimed advice to colleagues and students.

I would be happy personal acquaintance with you and fruitful cooperation.

I wish you good health and all good things of life

''Nazym F. Sayfullin, Chairman of the "Planetonautics" Section, Moscow Society of Naturalists (founded in 1805)''

Welcome to Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/groups/inocont/

--[[User:PPark|PPark]] 10:09, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
:To Nazym F. Sayfullin:
::My efforts with the <nowiki>[[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]] article were not undertaken on behalf of InoCont. It is my duty and my privilege as a guest administrator on Marspedia too serve the interest of Marspedia, which is the interest of THE MARS SOCIETY. I see no evidence that InoCont is a legal person capable of owning copyrights. I see no indication that Inocont is anything more than the creation of Nazym F. Sayfullin or PPark. The quality of the material posted by PPark does not suggest scholarly effort. It seems that the intent of Marspedia has been to give contributors a chance to bring their work up to a quality that reflects well upon Marspedia. So I have been trying to improve [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]]</nowiki> in hope that you get the idea that unfamiliarity with the English language is not an excuse for posting extensive amounts rambling disjointed prose on Marspedia. Claims of official positions with societies do not merit any special consideration on Marspedia unless they can be substantiated by officials of THE MARS SOCIETY. So far I have not had any indication that THE MARS SOCIETY has any interest in promoting InoCont or its program. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:43, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

==Contribution copyright status==
You've made contributions to Marspedia between 1 January and 20 June 2012, a period where there is a problem with the rules for the main namespace, specifically [[Another Contin(g)ent Concept]], [[Coronal Mass Ejections]], and [[Foundation of an Autonomous Colony]]. Do you officially allow your contributions to be released to the public domain? ...And by any chance are you the one who contributed anonymously to [[Autonomous planetary settlement]] from 174.31.99.237? Otherwise we may need to revert those helpful edits.-- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 02:17, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
:I officially allow my contributions to Marspedia to be released to public domain. It seems likely that the contribution from 174.31.99.237 was mine also, but I have no control over the IP addresses that are assigned to me, and I have kept no record. I just reverted that contribution and replaced it with one listed to my Marspedia name. I hope this is helpful. I can make further clean-up edits to <nowiki>[[Autonomous planetary settlement]]</nowiki> if I find the time. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:47, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

==To do==
The edit by user:123.115.107.183 on the 16th of July to the Talk:Discussion page related Cnc (computer numerical control) machining to considerations for Earthly use, but CNC machining would be a good compliment to forging on Mars too. It is possible that this IP address editor was making a good faith effort to contribute to the discussion of Mars colonization, but the edit was not in the proper place to be appreciated. I hope to add something about CNC machining when I can do it well and in the proper place. It is somewhat related to [[Colonization strategy]]. I have got [[Talk:Teraforming]] and other things to consider. Too much to do. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:38, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:Something Rose and I noticed a month or so ago was that some of the article-damaging attacks were using an AI that made text that read very much like it was on topic. The only way it was unambigous that it wasn't an attempt at a legitimate contribution was because it was deleting pre-existing content a section at a time, consistent with a common attack strategy.

:Fortunately, the main attackers singling out Marspedia are running low on non-blocked IP addresses. At least the ones who aren't creating garbage accounts and little else...

:--[[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 01:47, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

==Deletion reasons:==
*unused file form unknown source with unknown copyright status

*unused non-English file with unknown copyright status
- [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
:check User:LarueOgv
:[[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:47, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

==Technical Difficulties==
What exactly goes wrong when you edit and what do I need to do to duplicate the problem on my end? -- [[Special:Contributions/173.74.208.113|173.74.208.113]] 06:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I suppose messaging might work better if I'd remember to log in first, which reminds me of another problem I've been baffled by: why WHUMP is no longer able to log into here. I get this error message:

the high score is 670
Starting check for site http://marspedia.org
Logging In
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/[SNIP path]/WHUMP_M814_1247_marsp.py", line 192, in <module>
BR.select_form(name="userlogin")
File "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/mechanize/_mechanize.py", line 530, in select_form
raise FormNotFoundError("no form matching "+description)
mechanize._mechanize.FormNotFoundError: no form matching name 'userlogin'

...And I've been unable to figure out why. It was working before and only breaks for this wiki out of the five I'm presently running or trying to run [[User:WHUMP|WHUMP]] on.

Okay, I just hit preview and fot a page full of hyperlinks that are definitely not wanted. The background graphics were intact, and I belivee the text was over the graphics. Is this the problem you're running into? I'm still not sure how it could be caused. ...unless this is something in addition to what you're running into and it's happened since the last time I looked...

Interestingly, Firefox's built in spell checker isn't working right now as I type this.

There it goes again. First the links, then the template, and the links are under the graphics and a few DIVs that are part of the template.

hmm.

-- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 06:17, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

WHUMP's last ban here was 7 August, which may correspond to the problem unless it corresponds to my disk trouble that took my workstation offline for 2-3 weeks (doesn't look like it). When did the page full of garge links problem start? -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 06:36, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I've replaced the main directory's non-data php files with a set copied from exodictionary and am attempting to reproduce the problem. I'm not succeeding. Maybe this has been going on longer than I suspected?

Bonus: WHUMP is now able to log in again! -- so if the problem has been around since at least May (going by the date stamps on the files before I overwrote them, which is the date the attack I knew about was removed), why did it not become a problem for WHUMP until August? -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 07:01, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
:From your message it seems that you have found the problem that I mentioned on your talk page at Lunarpedia on the 17th of August. The symptoms you describe are consistent with what I see, but I do not notice the problems with WHUMP or Firefox because I do not run these programs. A possibility that I can guess at for staged symptoms is that at one point an attacker got access to the system and later by using that access found a place to make alterations that caused present symptoms. That is as close as I can come to being helpful. I no nothing in particular about programming wikis or setting them up. Good luck. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 10:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
::I hope the problem is fixed now. I did not see the spam links filling the screen when I edited my talk page last. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 10:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
:::On the Recent Changes page click on the Show Bots link to see what WHUMP has been up to lately. 8) -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 11:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
::::Good work! - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:20, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

==whoops==
Yes, I agree that anonymous people should not be allowed to crap up Marspedia. If we force them to create an account, that discourages a lot of spam right there. If they actually create an account and log in, it's far easier to get rid of all their crap; JamesG has a script to help mechanize spam removal. [[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 20:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

==more SPAM==
Yes, I agree that anonymous people should not be allowed to crap up Marspedia. If we force them to create an account, that discourages a lot of spam right there. If they actually create an account and log in, it's far easier to get rid of all their crap; JamesG has a script to help mechanize spam removal. [[User:Miros1|Miros1]] 19:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

:I have to disagree: the anonymous attacks expose their IP addresses and we can deal with them for however long we need to (180 days almost always works): they run out of IP addresses and can't attack anymore until they get new ones -- and then those get banned for 180 days too. When they create accounts they're protected: they can create new accounts continuously, and the longest the IP gets blocked is 24 hours. Give me anonymous IP attacks any day. It's the account-creating attacks that are a problem. If we want to get desperate, blocking account creation would go a lot further towards bringing the situation under control. The [[User:WHUMP|WHUMP]] script is running as I type and has been for quite awhile. I haven't thought of an algorithm for detecting damaging attacks to existing articles (so WHEMP automatically ignores such attacks), but I believe the Bad Behavior extension can help deal with those if we install it. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 20:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

::I replied on Miros1's talk page before seeing Strangelv's comment too. As to blocking IP addresses, I am not sure it does any good. I have checked for deleted contributions from IPs when removing their SPAM and only a couple of times have I found any. In those cases I blocked the IP. It may be that there is some other way of spoofing the system to give multiple IP addresses to one user than using a bot-net; or there may be so many zombie addresses available that the spammer never needs to use one twice. I am certain that I have never seen an over 180 day old deleted contribution listed to an IP. I will mention here too that I suspect a virus in my e-mail account. So I will try not to pass it along as we do what we can. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
::Now I see that undone contributions do not show up as deleted contributions on Marspedia like they do on Wikipedia. That makes things different than I suspected. I will start blocking IP address spammers more. Changing deleted contributions to include undone contributions might be more trouble than it is worth. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

==Featured article==
How do you think about [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk%3AMain_Page&diff=7767&oldid=7489 this proposal]? Problem is, I do not have permission to do it myself. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:50, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
:Whatever article you think would be good as a featured article is likely to be an improvement over leaving the same featured article for years. I have no experience in changing featured articles. I was just given administrator powers when there was a rash of vandalism to the wiki so I could help with that, but I have little technical knowledge about how a wiki is managed. People who disagree with your choice have every opportunity to voice there opinions. I have seen no objections to your proposal so far. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:01, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
All you need is to edit [[Template:Featured article]]. You may just copy parts of the selected article into there, and that is that. I have not the permission to do it, that is why I am asking you. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 21:07, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I have created a draft [[Template:Featured article draft|here]]. Could you please have a look and, may be after some enhancement or not, put it in [[Template:Featured article|there]] in order to make it appear on the main page? Thanks.

One more thing: Sorry for writing onto you user's page. I am going to move all the discussion stuff to your talk page, and I hope this is okay with you. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 14:50, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

:Thanks for moving the talk to my talk page. I was thinking I would get around to it sooner or later. I did see your edit on my user page and on <nowiki>[[Talk:Equipment for autonomous growth]]</nowiki> earlier but was still considering how to respond when I had the time. You have made it so easy for me now that I will first edit the featured article template and see what happens, second get back to autonomous growth later. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:34, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

==Sorry==
Note to self: never again edit Marspedia just because you think the medicine has worn off. I ''really'' messed that [[semimajor axis]] article up. Sorry. [[User:ChristiaanK|ChristiaanK]] 04:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

== user Rfc is blocked ==

Is blocking a proper mitigation for the massive bot attacks? We had better enhance the captcha, because our captcha works really poor. Obviously, the bots have no problem in dealing with our captcha. -- Rfc
:I recently finished 142 actions of blocking, deleting, and undoing the actions of spammers and vandals. I spent two hours and one minute doing that. I also unblocked Rfc. User:Strangelv, our local bureaucrat, changed the new account requirements at Lunarpedia to require requesting an account to get one. That helped. I suppose he could do the same for Marspedia. I will ask. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:07, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
::What was done to reduce spam at Lunarpedia does not seem appropriate for Marspedia. If Whump just keeps working as planned, it is not too much trouble. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
:Whump blocked you 22 minutes after you last recorded edit. I see nothing in that edit that should have attracted Whump's notice. Whump does not seem to have been doing it's standard job since then either. Perhaps it was altered. Something should be fixed. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! You are doing a great job here! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
== New User ==
Pete9804 has started making edits. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:24, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

People from Earth to Mars in 30 days

2013-09-28T22:14:07Z

Farred: fix spelling

==Overview==
Using a combination of electric and chemical propulsion it is possible to send people in a rocket from Earth to Mars in 30 days. The electric portion of the system would accelerate nine refueling depots to prepositioning orbits. The chemical rocket with a human crew would rendezvous with each of the nine refueling depots, adding about 3056 m/sec in each of ten burns. The nine refueling depots would be in nine independent orbits. The first would pass Earth at 3,056 m/sec, the second at 6,112 m/sec, the third at 9,168 m/sec and so on. The spaceship to Mars would accelerate to 3,056 and rendezvous with the first tanker just as it passes and likewise with each of the others in turn until it finally achieved the delta v for fast transfer to Mars This would follow an orbit of the same aphelion and perihelion as a Hohmann transfer orbit between Mercury and Saturn,<ref>W. Joseph Armento, ''PHYSICAL DATA FOR THE PLANETS, THEIR SATELLITES AND SOME ASTEROIDS'' in the CRC HANDBOOK of CHEMISTRY and PHYSICS, 64th edition, page F-140</ref> but with the inclination, longitude of ascending node and argument of perihelion needed to intersect Earth's and Mars' orbits. The change in velocity (delta v) necessary to change from Earth's orbit to the transfer orbit is 30,561 m/sec. This is just an example trajectory and there are probably transfer orbits that more efficiently use delta v and can make the 30 day transfer with less than nine refuelings. The fuel transfer technology still needs to be developed and practiced to be sure that the fuel transfers and rocket restarts are accomplished without fail, lest the crew be stranded en route. To address the possibility of difficulties with timely, reliable transfer of fuel and difficulties with engine restart, the fuel could be transferred complete with a fresh set of tanks, fresh engine, plumbing and wiring in a stage swap with the tanker. In using this technique, there would be only a mechanical connection between the rocket stage and the Mars bound spaceship. The rocket stage would have its own electrical power and be controlled by radio signals over a short gap. The prepositioning of the fuel depots would begin long before the human crew is launched, on the order of ten years before.
==Implications==
A spaceship for a 30 day voyage could be smaller than one intended for a 180 day voyage because not as much air, food and water would need to be carried. Provision for refueling would add some mass and there would need to be a substantial heat shield for slowing down at Mars. The 30 day mission to Mars may be limited to a fly-by unless other refuelings are scheduled near Mars to cut down the velocity of the spacecraft some before it begins atmospheric braking at Mars. There is a limit to the peak deceleration loading that it is reasonable for humans to endure. The refuelings near Mars and the atmospheric braking in excess of human tolerance could both be done away with if one is willing to settle for a 38 day transfer when Earth and Mars are closest. This uses a modified transfer trajectory with only seven refuelings.
==Concerns==
A concern for the use of multiple refuelings during a journey through the solar system is the possibility of failure of one of the tanker craft to achieve its planned orbit. There have been some failures of ion engines during missions. However NASA is working on a new [http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/about/fs22grc.html Magnetoplasmadynamic Thruster] which should solve the reliability problems. The new electric rocket uses hydrogen instead of Xenon. Since hydrogen is cheaper and available in much larger quantities than Xenon, it is a better choice for reaction mass for a tanker spacecraft. NASA writes that exhaust velocities approaching 100,000 meters per second can be achieved with noncondensable hydrogen plasmas, so a tanker using a Magnetoplasmadynamic Thruster should be able to achieve the delta v necessary for the planned rendezvous. If some failure did prevent a refueling tanker from being in the proper orbit, telemetry would indicate the failure long before the launch of the craft with a human crew. This failure would not cause loss of life because the launch could be aborted.
==Article notes==
Some people commenting on this article indicated that they thought the refuelings would be evenly spaced in time along the 30 day or 38 day trip. However, the refuelings would be bunched together near Earth for acceleration and a refueling near Mars for slowing down if needed. For most of the trip the rocket motor is unused and the spacecraft continues on in its transfer orbit. If two hours is allowed for each rendezvous, docking, stage swap and burn sequence in the 38 day trip, all acceleration would be completed in 16 hours at the start of the trip. Deceleration would be accomplished by atmospheric braking at Mars with preliminary refueling and retro-rocket deceleration if needed.

==Reference==
<references/>

[[Category:Concepts]]
[[Category:Spaceflight science]]
[[Category:Transport]]

Talk:Cellulose

2013-09-28T21:36:29Z

Farred: Article Relevance?

OK, just created my first page! Will be returning soon to add some more info.--[[User:Pete9804|Pete9804]] 20:38, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
== Article Relevance ==
On the plus side there are no spam links in the <nowiki>[[Cellulose]]</nowiki> article. What does it have to do with Mars colonization? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Talk:The Eden Project

2013-09-28T21:22:56Z

Farred: signature

== 98% ==
Where does this value come from? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:58, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
:If one designs a pressure vessel to contain 0.5 atmospheres pressure, as might be adequate for a greenhouse, then the atmospheric pressure of Mars, 0.01 atmospheres helps to hold that pressure in so that the differential pressure is 0.49 atmospheres, or 98% of differential pressure for building such a greenhouse in a vacuum. Of course if one wants to maintain 1 atmosphere internal pressure, then the differential pressure on Mars would be 0.99 atmospheres.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:01, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

The Eden Project is a really cool day out but I'm not convinced of the relevance to Mars exploration. It doesn't make reference to anything off-world, or even contained biospheres (in the way Biosphere 2 did). I would suggest that this page should be deleted.--[[User:Pete9804|Pete9804]] 20:01, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
:The text compares greenhouses on Earth with greenhouses on Mars, so the article has some relevance. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:22, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Talk:The Eden Project

2013-09-28T21:21:55Z

Farred: talk