http://marspedia.org/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Jarogers2001&feedformat=atomMarspedia - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T15:13:03ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.34.2http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=User_talk:PPark&diff=5065User talk:PPark2010-03-18T01:01:31Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* References to Russian web sites */</p>
<hr />
<div>==References to Russian web sites==<br />
Hi PPark, your edits in the article [[Independent Planetary Settlements]] are great! This gives a good presentation of the IPS project. However, I have done a little layout enhancement. How do you find that? And there is another problem: The referenced web sites are all in Russian language, which is not useful to most Marspedia users and readers. Are there English language web sites of the IPS project available? Can you arrange to make them on astronet.ru or innovaterussia.ru? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 07:28, 23 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Thanks, your enhancement is fine. As to primary sources: we plan to place in the near future transfer of the detailed program document "Otherwise continent". --[[User:PPark|PPark]] 15:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::You have done a lot of work here, which I extraordinarily appreciate. I whole bunch of excellent ideas! However, please let me give you some hints:<br />
:::# Marspedia is an ''English only'' site. This is a little different from Wikipedia. In our current development step we can not afford any translation work to fully support several languages. All our readers can understand English, but most readers can not understand Russian as well as Spanish, French or Chinese. I myself am German, but I am obliged to work strictly in English here on Marspedia. I have seen some of your uploaded files with Russian filenames and some with Russian contents. We have no problem with some Russian symbols as part of a logo or similar, but we have a problem with those files. It's best to delete them, I'm afraid. I would be pleased to see English ones instead, because I am sure they bear valuable contents. As you do not have permission to delete files yourself, you may nominate those files on the [[Deletion]] page. Some sysop will then delete them.<br />
:::# Unfortunately, we do not have much of a tutorial here on Marspedia, but it is sometimes really helpful to use the help pages of Wikipedia, because they use the same wiki engine. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tutorial_(Formatting)] is a good page to start with. Also very useful: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cheatsheet].<br />
:::# Marspedia is, like every other web page, subject to copyright law. This requires a note of origin of any contents, especially of uploaded files. Imported contents may even require a permission of the originator. Please see also the ''NOTICE'' on Marspedia's [[Main Page]]. You might find it helpful to look at the page of other pictures for an example.<br />
:::# I have the impression that your text edits are a kind of ''copy'' of an existing text, which also requires a note of origin. Generally, the articles on Marspedia are not meant to be just ''copies'' of existing documents. Instead, they are creations of Marspedia's authors. It is perfectly fine in an article to reference to external documents, web pages, etc. and to illustrate the articles with uploaded files. If [[Otherwise Continent' Concept]] is such a (translated) copy of ''ИНОЙ_КОНТИНЕНТ'' then this text should be placed on the web space of the original project, and a Marspedia article may introduce the project. A link should be placed inside the Marspedia article, pointing to the external project or to documents inside the external project.<br />
:::Please be not discouraged by those hints. Your edits here on Marspedia are not in vain, and I am sure, they can be restructured according to the rules with not too much effort. Again, I extraordinarily appreciate your work here. Hopefully, we can reach our goals together. Cheers! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::::* Hi Rfc, it is very grateful for your recommendations. Work on references will be conducted, but I am afflicted that the template for footnotes on this wiki-portal does not work also necessary comments remain invisible. --[[User:PPark|PPark]] 21:06, 2 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::Hi PPark, This is not exactly what I meant. I will try to put it more precise for you:<br />
:::# The only allowed language on Marspedia is ''English''. Please remove all Russian words from the article. I am going to [[Deletion|nominate]] some of your uploaded files for deletion because of their Russian contents, e.g. file ''CashFlow OtherContin.gif'', ''TotalProfit OtherContin.gif'', etc. and because of their Cyrillic filenames, e.g. file ''ГечвоК морфология.gif '', etc.<br />
:::# -<br />
:::# Please insert a copyright note on the page of your uploaded files, e.g. file ''Contingent OtherContin super.gif''. You can find an example how to do that on the page of [[:File:Raw food mix.jpg]] or [[:File:76002main marshabitat.jpg]].<br />
:::# Please rework the article [[Otherwise Continent' Concept]]. The article must not be a pure translation of an existing Russian document. The article may be a mere introduction to that program.<br />
:::If you have further questions, please do not hesitate to ask. I will help you doing the rework if you wish. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 16:54, 6 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:PPark, I can only assume that you are talking about "spin-up technology." Your current translation software is inadequate for the task of overcoming the Russian English language barrier. Please use better software so that we may communicate. -- PPark, я могу только предположить, что вы говорите о "спин-вверх технологии". Ваша текущая программа перевода является недостаточным для выполнения задачи по преодолению Русский Английский языковой барьер. Пожалуйста, используйте лучшее программное обеспечение, чтобы мы могли общаться. Этот перевод был сделать с помощью Google Translate.[http://translate.google.com/#ru|en|] -- PPark, я могу только предположить, что вы говорите о "спин-вверх технологии". Ваша текущая программа перевода является недостаточным для выполнения задачи по преодолению Русский Английский языковой барьер. Пожалуйста, используйте лучшее программное обеспечение, чтобы мы могли общаться. Этот перевод был WordMonkey сделать с помощью переводчика. -- [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 00:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:PPark, please place the Russian version of your article [[Otherwise Continent' Concept]] at [[Otherwise Continent' Concept/ru|this url]]. I will attempt to read it using GoogleTranslate. We seem to be having issues with the language barrier. I apologize for any confusion. - PPark, пожалуйста, место русскую версию Вашей статьи [[Otherwise Continent' Concept]] на [[Otherwise Continent' Concept/ru|Этот URL]]. Я пытался читать его с помощью GoogleTranslate. Мы, кажется, возникают проблемы с языковым барьером. Я приношу свои извинения за причиненные неудобства. -- [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 01:01, 18 March 2010 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=User_talk:PPark&diff=5064User talk:PPark2010-03-18T00:36:56Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* References to Russian web sites */</p>
<hr />
<div>==References to Russian web sites==<br />
Hi PPark, your edits in the article [[Independent Planetary Settlements]] are great! This gives a good presentation of the IPS project. However, I have done a little layout enhancement. How do you find that? And there is another problem: The referenced web sites are all in Russian language, which is not useful to most Marspedia users and readers. Are there English language web sites of the IPS project available? Can you arrange to make them on astronet.ru or innovaterussia.ru? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 07:28, 23 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Thanks, your enhancement is fine. As to primary sources: we plan to place in the near future transfer of the detailed program document "Otherwise continent". --[[User:PPark|PPark]] 15:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::You have done a lot of work here, which I extraordinarily appreciate. I whole bunch of excellent ideas! However, please let me give you some hints:<br />
:::# Marspedia is an ''English only'' site. This is a little different from Wikipedia. In our current development step we can not afford any translation work to fully support several languages. All our readers can understand English, but most readers can not understand Russian as well as Spanish, French or Chinese. I myself am German, but I am obliged to work strictly in English here on Marspedia. I have seen some of your uploaded files with Russian filenames and some with Russian contents. We have no problem with some Russian symbols as part of a logo or similar, but we have a problem with those files. It's best to delete them, I'm afraid. I would be pleased to see English ones instead, because I am sure they bear valuable contents. As you do not have permission to delete files yourself, you may nominate those files on the [[Deletion]] page. Some sysop will then delete them.<br />
:::# Unfortunately, we do not have much of a tutorial here on Marspedia, but it is sometimes really helpful to use the help pages of Wikipedia, because they use the same wiki engine. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tutorial_(Formatting)] is a good page to start with. Also very useful: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cheatsheet].<br />
:::# Marspedia is, like every other web page, subject to copyright law. This requires a note of origin of any contents, especially of uploaded files. Imported contents may even require a permission of the originator. Please see also the ''NOTICE'' on Marspedia's [[Main Page]]. You might find it helpful to look at the page of other pictures for an example.<br />
:::# I have the impression that your text edits are a kind of ''copy'' of an existing text, which also requires a note of origin. Generally, the articles on Marspedia are not meant to be just ''copies'' of existing documents. Instead, they are creations of Marspedia's authors. It is perfectly fine in an article to reference to external documents, web pages, etc. and to illustrate the articles with uploaded files. If [[Otherwise Continent' Concept]] is such a (translated) copy of ''ИНОЙ_КОНТИНЕНТ'' then this text should be placed on the web space of the original project, and a Marspedia article may introduce the project. A link should be placed inside the Marspedia article, pointing to the external project or to documents inside the external project.<br />
:::Please be not discouraged by those hints. Your edits here on Marspedia are not in vain, and I am sure, they can be restructured according to the rules with not too much effort. Again, I extraordinarily appreciate your work here. Hopefully, we can reach our goals together. Cheers! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::::* Hi Rfc, it is very grateful for your recommendations. Work on references will be conducted, but I am afflicted that the template for footnotes on this wiki-portal does not work also necessary comments remain invisible. --[[User:PPark|PPark]] 21:06, 2 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:::Hi PPark, This is not exactly what I meant. I will try to put it more precise for you:<br />
:::# The only allowed language on Marspedia is ''English''. Please remove all Russian words from the article. I am going to [[Deletion|nominate]] some of your uploaded files for deletion because of their Russian contents, e.g. file ''CashFlow OtherContin.gif'', ''TotalProfit OtherContin.gif'', etc. and because of their Cyrillic filenames, e.g. file ''ГечвоК морфология.gif '', etc.<br />
:::# -<br />
:::# Please insert a copyright note on the page of your uploaded files, e.g. file ''Contingent OtherContin super.gif''. You can find an example how to do that on the page of [[:File:Raw food mix.jpg]] or [[:File:76002main marshabitat.jpg]].<br />
:::# Please rework the article [[Otherwise Continent' Concept]]. The article must not be a pure translation of an existing Russian document. The article may be a mere introduction to that program.<br />
:::If you have further questions, please do not hesitate to ask. I will help you doing the rework if you wish. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 16:54, 6 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:PPark, I can only assume that you are talking about "spin-up technology." Your current translation software is inadequate for the task of overcoming the Russian English language barrier. Please use better software so that we may communicate. -- PPark, я могу только предположить, что вы говорите о "спин-вверх технологии". Ваша текущая программа перевода является недостаточным для выполнения задачи по преодолению Русский Английский языковой барьер. Пожалуйста, используйте лучшее программное обеспечение, чтобы мы могли общаться. Этот перевод был сделать с помощью Google Translate.[http://translate.google.com/#ru|en|] -- PPark, я могу только предположить, что вы говорите о "спин-вверх технологии". Ваша текущая программа перевода является недостаточным для выполнения задачи по преодолению Русский Английский языковой барьер. Пожалуйста, используйте лучшее программное обеспечение, чтобы мы могли общаться. Этот перевод был WordMonkey сделать с помощью переводчика. -- [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 00:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Deletion&diff=5063Deletion2010-03-18T00:18:37Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* Images for deletion */</p>
<hr />
<div>Although we want to have all material due to [[Main_Page#Marspedia Policies|Marspedia Policies]] there are some cases making the deletion of articles, images or categories necessary. These are:<br />
<br />
* Somebody creates an article, image or category with a misspelled name inadvertently. When she/he becomes aware of it, she/he wants to get rid of it.<br />
* Two articles on the same subject are merged. Usually a [[Marspedia:Redirection|redirection]] is the right thing to do, but in certain cases one of the names might be useless.<br />
* A category might become useless after a change in the [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Category:Main category tree].<br />
* An article, picture or category has been posted by a vandal.<br />
* An article or picture has been created (maybe unwittingly) in violation of copyright.<br />
<br />
Anybody can nominate an article, image or category for deletion by just listing it in the appropriate section below. The deletion itself can only be done by a user with sysop permission. The deletion log can be viewed [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=delete&user=&page= here].<br />
<br />
==Articles for deletion==<br />
*<del>[[Create an Article to this category]] (obviously inadvertently created)</del> -- article removed by [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 13:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
* <del>[[Marspedia:Privacy policy]] (gibberish vandalism)</del> -- article removed by [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 02:41, 10 November 2007 (UTC).<br />
*<del>[[Atmsopheric processing]] -- Typo. Contents moved. Now it is a useless redirection page.</del> -- article with name typo deleted by [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 03:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC)<br />
*<S>[[Penis]]</S> (gibberish vandalism) deleted by [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 10:53, 19 February 2009<br />
*<S>[[Massage]]</S> (gibberish vandalism) deleted by [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 11:29, 27 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
*<del>[[Solar heat engine]] (redundant, see also [[User talk:Rfc#An article to delete]])</del> (author requested) deleted by [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 00:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
*[[Otherwise Continent' Concept]] seemingly off topic, seemingly poor translation of Russian text, cites Russian lanuage web pages as sources. See [[Talk:Otherwise Continent' Concept]]<br />
: I would like to give the author a few more days to put the article in the correct context (see also [[User talk:PPark|PPark's talk page]]). -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 16:01, 6 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Images for deletion==<br />
*<del>[[:Image:Reprap-small.jpg]] (for copyright reasons)</del> clarified -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:07, 7 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
* <del>[[:Image:UniversalBricks01.gif]] is no longer needed. A better picture is available instead. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 21:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)</del> deleted by [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 00:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
The following files were uploaded by [[user:PPark]]. I explained him that only English is allowed on Marspedia. No adequate reaction from him ever since.<br />
* [[:File:Динамика автономизации.gif]] is pure russian regarding filename and contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:ГечвоК морфология.gif]] is pure russian regarding filename and contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:ГечвоК оси апр2009.gif]] is pure russian regarding filename and contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:TotalProfit OtherContin.gif]] has pure russian contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:Struct OtherContin super.gif]] has pure russian contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:Progr OtherContin super.gif]] has pure russian contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:CashTraces OtherContin.gif]] has pure russian contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:CashFlow OtherContin.gif]] has pure russian contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Categories for deletion==<br />
*[http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Category:Mirrored_from_Lunarp Category:Mirrored from Lunarp] - Created in error.<br />
* <del>[http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Category:Human_Missions Category:Human Missions] (This category is redundant with "Manned Missions", is not part of the tree, is not used with an article and thus is useless.)</del> - category removed by [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 20:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
*<del>'''Category:MarsDrive''' - This category is not part of the tree, - is styled as if it were an article, - is not used with an article, - is a violation of GNU Free Document License (copy from wikipedia).</del> - category removed by [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 22:16, 14 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Redirects for deletion==<br />
*''[[Space Suit]] (capital letter starts the second word. This is only a dead redirect.)'' -- no need to delete, redirect still operating. May delete later if required. [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 22:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
*''[[Space Suits]] (plural. This is only a dead redirect.)'' -- redirect edited to "Space suit", may delete at a later time. [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 22:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
*[[Mars 105]] and [[Mars-105]] (Dead redirect pages. These redirect pages have names that actually do not exist.)<br />
<br />
[[Category:Cleanup]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Deletion&diff=5062Deletion2010-03-18T00:11:12Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* Articles for deletion */</p>
<hr />
<div>Although we want to have all material due to [[Main_Page#Marspedia Policies|Marspedia Policies]] there are some cases making the deletion of articles, images or categories necessary. These are:<br />
<br />
* Somebody creates an article, image or category with a misspelled name inadvertently. When she/he becomes aware of it, she/he wants to get rid of it.<br />
* Two articles on the same subject are merged. Usually a [[Marspedia:Redirection|redirection]] is the right thing to do, but in certain cases one of the names might be useless.<br />
* A category might become useless after a change in the [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Category:Main category tree].<br />
* An article, picture or category has been posted by a vandal.<br />
* An article or picture has been created (maybe unwittingly) in violation of copyright.<br />
<br />
Anybody can nominate an article, image or category for deletion by just listing it in the appropriate section below. The deletion itself can only be done by a user with sysop permission. The deletion log can be viewed [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=delete&user=&page= here].<br />
<br />
==Articles for deletion==<br />
*<del>[[Create an Article to this category]] (obviously inadvertently created)</del> -- article removed by [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 13:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
* <del>[[Marspedia:Privacy policy]] (gibberish vandalism)</del> -- article removed by [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 02:41, 10 November 2007 (UTC).<br />
*<del>[[Atmsopheric processing]] -- Typo. Contents moved. Now it is a useless redirection page.</del> -- article with name typo deleted by [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 03:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC)<br />
*<S>[[Penis]]</S> (gibberish vandalism) deleted by [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 10:53, 19 February 2009<br />
*<S>[[Massage]]</S> (gibberish vandalism) deleted by [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 11:29, 27 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
*<del>[[Solar heat engine]] (redundant, see also [[User talk:Rfc#An article to delete]])</del> (author requested) deleted by [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 00:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
*[[Otherwise Continent' Concept]] seemingly off topic, seemingly poor translation of Russian text, cites Russian lanuage web pages as sources. See [[Talk:Otherwise Continent' Concept]]<br />
: I would like to give the author a few more days to put the article in the correct context (see also [[User talk:PPark|PPark's talk page]]). -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 16:01, 6 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Images for deletion==<br />
*<del>[[:Image:Reprap-small.jpg]] (for copyright reasons)</del> clarified -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:07, 7 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
* [[:Image:UniversalBricks01.gif]] is no longer needed. A better picture is available instead. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 21:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
The following files were uploaded by [[user:PPark]]. I explained him that only English is allowed on Marspedia. No adequate reaction from him ever since.<br />
* [[:File:Динамика автономизации.gif]] is pure russian regarding filename and contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:ГечвоК морфология.gif]] is pure russian regarding filename and contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:ГечвоК оси апр2009.gif]] is pure russian regarding filename and contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:TotalProfit OtherContin.gif]] has pure russian contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:Struct OtherContin super.gif]] has pure russian contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:Progr OtherContin super.gif]] has pure russian contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:CashTraces OtherContin.gif]] has pure russian contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:CashFlow OtherContin.gif]] has pure russian contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Categories for deletion==<br />
*[http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Category:Mirrored_from_Lunarp Category:Mirrored from Lunarp] - Created in error.<br />
* <del>[http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Category:Human_Missions Category:Human Missions] (This category is redundant with "Manned Missions", is not part of the tree, is not used with an article and thus is useless.)</del> - category removed by [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 20:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
*<del>'''Category:MarsDrive''' - This category is not part of the tree, - is styled as if it were an article, - is not used with an article, - is a violation of GNU Free Document License (copy from wikipedia).</del> - category removed by [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 22:16, 14 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Redirects for deletion==<br />
*''[[Space Suit]] (capital letter starts the second word. This is only a dead redirect.)'' -- no need to delete, redirect still operating. May delete later if required. [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 22:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
*''[[Space Suits]] (plural. This is only a dead redirect.)'' -- redirect edited to "Space suit", may delete at a later time. [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 22:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
*[[Mars 105]] and [[Mars-105]] (Dead redirect pages. These redirect pages have names that actually do not exist.)<br />
<br />
[[Category:Cleanup]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Deletion&diff=5061Deletion2010-03-18T00:10:31Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* Articles for deletion */</p>
<hr />
<div>Although we want to have all material due to [[Main_Page#Marspedia Policies|Marspedia Policies]] there are some cases making the deletion of articles, images or categories necessary. These are:<br />
<br />
* Somebody creates an article, image or category with a misspelled name inadvertently. When she/he becomes aware of it, she/he wants to get rid of it.<br />
* Two articles on the same subject are merged. Usually a [[Marspedia:Redirection|redirection]] is the right thing to do, but in certain cases one of the names might be useless.<br />
* A category might become useless after a change in the [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Category:Main category tree].<br />
* An article, picture or category has been posted by a vandal.<br />
* An article or picture has been created (maybe unwittingly) in violation of copyright.<br />
<br />
Anybody can nominate an article, image or category for deletion by just listing it in the appropriate section below. The deletion itself can only be done by a user with sysop permission. The deletion log can be viewed [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=delete&user=&page= here].<br />
<br />
==Articles for deletion==<br />
*<del>[[Create an Article to this category]] (obviously inadvertently created)</del> -- article removed by [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 13:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
* <del>[[Marspedia:Privacy policy]] (gibberish vandalism)</del> -- article removed by [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 02:41, 10 November 2007 (UTC).<br />
*<del>[[Atmsopheric processing]] -- Typo. Contents moved. Now it is a useless redirection page.</del> -- article with name typo deleted by [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 03:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC)<br />
*<S>[[Penis]]</S> (gibberish vandalism) deleted by [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 10:53, 19 February 2009<br />
*<S>[[Massage]]</S> (gibberish vandalism) deleted by [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 11:29, 27 June 2009 (UTC)<br />
*<del>[[Solar heat engine]] (redundant, see also [[User talk:Rfc#An article to delete]])<del> (author requested) deleted by [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 00:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
*[[Otherwise Continent' Concept]] seemingly off topic, seemingly poor translation of Russian text, cites Russian lanuage web pages as sources. See [[Talk:Otherwise Continent' Concept]]<br />
: I would like to give the author a few more days to put the article in the correct context (see also [[User talk:PPark|PPark's talk page]]). -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 16:01, 6 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Images for deletion==<br />
*<del>[[:Image:Reprap-small.jpg]] (for copyright reasons)</del> clarified -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:07, 7 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
* [[:Image:UniversalBricks01.gif]] is no longer needed. A better picture is available instead. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 21:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
The following files were uploaded by [[user:PPark]]. I explained him that only English is allowed on Marspedia. No adequate reaction from him ever since.<br />
* [[:File:Динамика автономизации.gif]] is pure russian regarding filename and contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:ГечвоК морфология.gif]] is pure russian regarding filename and contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:ГечвоК оси апр2009.gif]] is pure russian regarding filename and contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:TotalProfit OtherContin.gif]] has pure russian contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:Struct OtherContin super.gif]] has pure russian contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:Progr OtherContin super.gif]] has pure russian contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:CashTraces OtherContin.gif]] has pure russian contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* [[:File:CashFlow OtherContin.gif]] has pure russian contents. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Categories for deletion==<br />
*[http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Category:Mirrored_from_Lunarp Category:Mirrored from Lunarp] - Created in error.<br />
* <del>[http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Category:Human_Missions Category:Human Missions] (This category is redundant with "Manned Missions", is not part of the tree, is not used with an article and thus is useless.)</del> - category removed by [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 20:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
*<del>'''Category:MarsDrive''' - This category is not part of the tree, - is styled as if it were an article, - is not used with an article, - is a violation of GNU Free Document License (copy from wikipedia).</del> - category removed by [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 22:16, 14 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Redirects for deletion==<br />
*''[[Space Suit]] (capital letter starts the second word. This is only a dead redirect.)'' -- no need to delete, redirect still operating. May delete later if required. [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 22:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
*''[[Space Suits]] (plural. This is only a dead redirect.)'' -- redirect edited to "Space suit", may delete at a later time. [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 22:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
*[[Mars 105]] and [[Mars-105]] (Dead redirect pages. These redirect pages have names that actually do not exist.)<br />
<br />
[[Category:Cleanup]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Marspedia%27s_popularity&diff=4703Talk:Marspedia's popularity2009-11-26T04:16:31Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* The Quality of the Site */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi!<br />
<br />
I drop links to pertinent articles whenever the concepts come up in discussion. I recommend you guys do that as well. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 04:10, 26 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The Quality of the Site == <br />
:I have looked over the questions and cannot suggest a particular failing. Colonizing Mars is hard work, and so is developing good copy describing the prospects. For me the problem has been budgeting time to make good contributions.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:25, 11 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
::... which seems to fit ''" Are people too busy struggling their daily life?"'' best. Yeah, that is my problem too. And most people seem not to be interested in such a "weired" idea of colonizing Mars at all. And yet, the number of Mars Society members is constantly rising. Is it for them easy enough to pay a membership fee, but contributing is to hard? I am trying to think what keeps them away from Marspedia? And what can we do to encourage them? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:53, 16 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
:Whenever I read the following on the front page, I often want to shake my head. These have crackpot written all over them: <br />
:*No Need to be Notable<br />
:*No Need to be Neutral<br />
:*Commercial Links are OK - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 04:16, 26 November 2009 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Marspedia%27s_popularity&diff=4702Talk:Marspedia's popularity2009-11-26T04:15:25Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* The Quality of the Site */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi!<br />
<br />
I drop links to pertinent articles whenever the concepts come up in discussion. I recommend you guys do that as well. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 04:10, 26 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The Quality of the Site == <br />
:I have looked over the questions and cannot suggest a particular failing. Colonizing Mars is hard work, and so is developing good copy describing the prospects. For me the problem has been budgeting time to make good contributions.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:25, 11 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
::... which seems to fit ''" Are people too busy struggling their daily life?"'' best. Yeah, that is my problem too. And most people seem not to be interested in such a "weired" idea of colonizing Mars at all. And yet, the number of Mars Society members is constantly rising. Is it for them easy enough to pay a membership fee, but contributing is to hard? I am trying to think what keeps them away from Marspedia? And what can we do to encourage them? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:53, 16 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
:Whenever I read the following on the front page, I often want to shake my head. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 04:15, 26 November 2009 (UTC) These have crackpot written all over them: <br />
No Need to be Notable<br />
No Need to be Neutral<br />
Commercial Links are OK</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Marspedia%27s_popularity&diff=4701Talk:Marspedia's popularity2009-11-26T04:10:39Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
<hr />
<div>Hi!<br />
<br />
I drop links to pertinent articles whenever the concepts come up in discussion. I recommend you guys do that as well. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 04:10, 26 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The Quality of the Site == <br />
:I have looked over the questions and cannot suggest a particular failing. Colonizing Mars is hard work, and so is developing good copy describing the prospects. For me the problem has been budgeting time to make good contributions.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:25, 11 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
::... which seems to fit ''" Are people too busy struggling their daily life?"'' best. Yeah, that is my problem too. And most people seem not to be interested in such a "weired" idea of colonizing Mars at all. And yet, the number of Mars Society members is constantly rising. Is it for them easy enough to pay a membership fee, but contributing is to hard? I am trying to think what keeps them away from Marspedia? And what can we do to encourage them? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:53, 16 November 2009 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Laertes&diff=4424User talk:Laertes2009-01-19T23:07:28Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* Help */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi Laertes! Welcome to Marspedia! My name is Ian O'Neill, one of the admins here and I'm available most of the time if you need any assistance. We're hoping for a big 2008 for lots of new additions to the Marspedia wiki, so it's great to have you on board. Hopefully see you soon -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 06:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hi, you are doing a great job here:-) My English is not so good, and I really appreciate every enhancement. Don't worry about lack in space experience. Nobody went to Mars so far, and hence nobody knows how to do it. There are many challenges that are completely new, and every contribution is welcome. Enjoy! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 10:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Welcome back! - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 06:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Vital Technology ==<br />
<br />
Hi Laertes, my understanding of a Martian settlement is a rather spartan economy, that can be run by a limited number of persons. Which technology is really vital? This seems to be a very important questions. Recently I have been thinking a lot about this question.<br />
<br />
First of all, I wonder how big such a colony must be, in oder to produce everything on their own. Probably, an autonomous colony can not be run by 5 people. It requires more manpower, but how much more? I am trying to get an idea how the start of an autonomous colony may look like. There is probably a certain minimum of technology, and therefore a minimum of persons necessary. In order to find that out, I am trying to leave out all comfort and all unnecessary dead freight. Just keeping the inevitable. Pure survival. This is what I am trying to find out at the moment.<br />
<br />
Because of the vast effort of shipment, I am pretty sure that the start of a Martian colony will be a rather small one. Let's say, a group of 5 persons make the start. They can start to build an autonomous colony, based upon technology shipped from Earth to Mars. But they can not maintain all systems including production of all spare parts from local resources. At least I am really in doubt about that. May be, we can bring 20 persons to Mars, which is very very expensive. May be, we can bring 50 people to Mars, in a time frame of 20 years. This is an optimistic (and may be an unrealistic) imagination, though. And with this limited number of persons we have to find a way to build a livelihood from scratch, albeit with settlers with a huge amount of enthusiasm, but still with heavy limitations in maintenance manpower.<br />
<br />
I am still not sure whether or not such an autonomous colony is possible at all. If it is possible with such a limited manpower, it can not include complex chemical and microelectronic factories. I think, the settlers will be busy primarily with energy and food production, which is extremely cheap on Earth, and which is hard on Mars. On Earth we can afford doing further business, because the food is growing almost of its own volition. <br />
<br />
That is what I am mostly concerned about at the moment, and I just want to explain my thoughts to you. Probably, I will not be able to contribute much to Marspedia during the holidays, but I'm back next Monday. I am happy about your being part of the team. Merry X-mas to you and your family. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 21:55, 22 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==The Need for Advanced Technology==<br />
Merry Christmas to you and yours too, RFC :). I tend to think more long term (both views are critical).<br />
I think the critical mass for a sustainable, self reliant colony will be a little larger. At a minimum, they will need to replace or repair critical components, such as life support, medical technology, food production, etc. Many of these require complex electronics and chemistry. In addition, there need to be enough reproducing individuals to avoid inbreeding (frozen embreyos/sperm are alternatives, of course). An initial colony could be the size you are suggesting, as long as more colonists arrive later. <br />
<br />
In my mind, an autonomous settlement is not a closed system without any outside input, but rather an independent sovereign state, fully in control of its destiny. In that regard, it need not supply all of its needs locally. Even on Earth, no sovereign state would think of eliminating all trade with other nations. Napoleon tried such a strategy, which ultimately failed. Until critical mass is attained, the autonomous settlement will need to buy certain advanced technology.<br />
--[[User:Laertes|Nate]] 01:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Obviously, there are two strategies to build an autonomous settlement. Your favored strategy has some interesting advantages, indeed. It allows starting much simpler and earlier. However, if I was asked to go to Mars as part of the first group, with a promise for further technology and more settlers to be shipped some years later, I would not accept. I would be afraid. I would fear the abortion of the colonization program at some stage, due to some reason. And there are a lot of reasons. The full [[independence from Earth]] is something I find very important. I will try to start an article about all the possible colonization strategies. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:11, 28 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Financing Imported Technology==<br />
A successful business model will be the key to success, so that more people and resources can be afforded. I propose a model similar to those used by many small nations, such as the Vatican, Monaco, San Marino, and some Pacific islands. These states also lack the infrastructure to manufacture advanced technology.<br />
<br />
My amazing gnomish three-step PowerMoney™ model involves:<br />
::# Massive amounts of regolith<br />
::# ?????????<br />
::# PROFIT!!!<br />
:::(Still working on the second step...)<br />
<br />
Seriously, though:<br />
::*'''Tourism''' - Certain people with a lot of money have historically been interested in Space Tourism, even when there are significant risks.<br />
::*'''Scientific Lease''' - A settlement can lease space and sell resources to governments or institutions that want to send their scientists to Mars. Alternately, settlers could be paid to do the work for them.<br />
::*'''Offworld Backup''' - Offsite backup is a vital aspect of data security for any business. It ensures data backup in the event of natural disasters. No location could be more offsite than Mars!<br />
::*'''Internet Domain Sale''' - People could buy the .mars domain.<br />
::*'''Licensed Merchandise''' - While Mars itself cannot be trademarked, likenesses of the settlement/settlers could be. Possibilities include stamps, coins, playsets, etc. First colonists would likely gain celebrity status.<br />
::*'''Land Speculation''' - While historically not the most respectable business, an actual presence on Mars lends much more credibility to the transaction.<br />
::*'''Tax Shelter''' - Legality may vary by your location...<br />
::*'''Consultancy''' - Advising governments in their own exploration/colonization efforts.<br />
::*'''Martian Cemetery''' - People might pay to have their ashes buried on Mars.<br />
::*'''Investment''' - I don't know much about this , but I hear that your mileage may vary...<br />
::*'''Host Hazardous Research''' - Nothing says bio-secure like an irradiated near-vacuum environment. Any facility would necessarily be isolated from the colony, of course. It would be the perfect location for biotechnology research without the risk to terrestrial life.<br />
::*'''Genetic Legacy''' - Ensure your genetic legacy by sending your sperm/eggs/embryos to Mars. Having descendants on two worlds is more secure.<br />
::*'''Commercial Sponsorship''' - Pay to place a logo on a wall, use "the official << ''insert commercial product here'' >> of Mars" in advertising.<br />
More to follow if I can think of them...<br />
<br />
The eventual goal, of course, is to get to a state where Martian settlements can rely on each other for most, if not all, technology. I think that the realization of such a goal will likely take several generations of colonists.<br/>--[[User:Laertes|Nate]] 01:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Many of the aspects listed here also apply to Lunar business models. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 10:47, 26 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:The financing ideas are brilliant! I think we need an article with this contents ... -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:11, 28 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Thanks. They are not all original, I can remember seeing similar ideas elsewhere. I will research to see what I can throw together. Lets call this [[interplanetary commerce]]. Feel free to give it a better title. --[[User:Laertes|Nate]] 00:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Help==<br />
Are there style guides for the wikis? I am looking for information on recommended colors, table styles, and any other formatting info besides the standard mediawiki stuff. I am kind of winging it, with oranges and reds for Marspedia, etc...<br />
<br />
:None that I am aware of. We all wing it using whatever looks best. If you would like to generate your own, it may become standard. When I think of a tool/template that is needed on lunarpedia to make articles easier, I generally make it as a subpage of my own user page. Its my cheatsheet method. If people like it and want to use it, it gets moved and becomes standard. Do you know how to make subpages? By the way, new message on Lunarpedia. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 20:10, 19 January 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I am not familiar with subpages. I am still in the process of learning the wiki syntax. Any help/advice is appreciated. --[[User:Laertes|Nate]] 22:52, 19 January 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Do it just like [[User:Laertes/subpage | this]]. <nowiki>[["page"/"desired subpage" | "visible text"]]</nowiki> I always do mine as a link on my page so that I can always get back to them. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 23:07, 19 January 2009 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Laertes&diff=4422User talk:Laertes2009-01-19T20:10:57Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* Help */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi Laertes! Welcome to Marspedia! My name is Ian O'Neill, one of the admins here and I'm available most of the time if you need any assistance. We're hoping for a big 2008 for lots of new additions to the Marspedia wiki, so it's great to have you on board. Hopefully see you soon -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 06:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hi, you are doing a great job here:-) My English is not so good, and I really appreciate every enhancement. Don't worry about lack in space experience. Nobody went to Mars so far, and hence nobody knows how to do it. There are many challenges that are completely new, and every contribution is welcome. Enjoy! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 10:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Welcome back! - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 06:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Vital Technology ==<br />
<br />
Hi Laertes, my understanding of a Martian settlement is a rather spartan economy, that can be run by a limited number of persons. Which technology is really vital? This seems to be a very important questions. Recently I have been thinking a lot about this question.<br />
<br />
First of all, I wonder how big such a colony must be, in oder to produce everything on their own. Probably, an autonomous colony can not be run by 5 people. It requires more manpower, but how much more? I am trying to get an idea how the start of an autonomous colony may look like. There is probably a certain minimum of technology, and therefore a minimum of persons necessary. In order to find that out, I am trying to leave out all comfort and all unnecessary dead freight. Just keeping the inevitable. Pure survival. This is what I am trying to find out at the moment.<br />
<br />
Because of the vast effort of shipment, I am pretty sure that the start of a Martian colony will be a rather small one. Let's say, a group of 5 persons make the start. They can start to build an autonomous colony, based upon technology shipped from Earth to Mars. But they can not maintain all systems including production of all spare parts from local resources. At least I am really in doubt about that. May be, we can bring 20 persons to Mars, which is very very expensive. May be, we can bring 50 people to Mars, in a time frame of 20 years. This is an optimistic (and may be an unrealistic) imagination, though. And with this limited number of persons we have to find a way to build a livelihood from scratch, albeit with settlers with a huge amount of enthusiasm, but still with heavy limitations in maintenance manpower.<br />
<br />
I am still not sure whether or not such an autonomous colony is possible at all. If it is possible with such a limited manpower, it can not include complex chemical and microelectronic factories. I think, the settlers will be busy primarily with energy and food production, which is extremely cheap on Earth, and which is hard on Mars. On Earth we can afford doing further business, because the food is growing almost of its own volition. <br />
<br />
That is what I am mostly concerned about at the moment, and I just want to explain my thoughts to you. Probably, I will not be able to contribute much to Marspedia during the holidays, but I'm back next Monday. I am happy about your being part of the team. Merry X-mas to you and your family. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 21:55, 22 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==The Need for Advanced Technology==<br />
Merry Christmas to you and yours too, RFC :). I tend to think more long term (both views are critical).<br />
I think the critical mass for a sustainable, self reliant colony will be a little larger. At a minimum, they will need to replace or repair critical components, such as life support, medical technology, food production, etc. Many of these require complex electronics and chemistry. In addition, there need to be enough reproducing individuals to avoid inbreeding (frozen embreyos/sperm are alternatives, of course). An initial colony could be the size you are suggesting, as long as more colonists arrive later. <br />
<br />
In my mind, an autonomous settlement is not a closed system without any outside input, but rather an independent sovereign state, fully in control of its destiny. In that regard, it need not supply all of its needs locally. Even on Earth, no sovereign state would think of eliminating all trade with other nations. Napoleon tried such a strategy, which ultimately failed. Until critical mass is attained, the autonomous settlement will need to buy certain advanced technology.<br />
--[[User:Laertes|Nate]] 01:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Obviously, there are two strategies to build an autonomous settlement. Your favored strategy has some interesting advantages, indeed. It allows starting much simpler and earlier. However, if I was asked to go to Mars as part of the first group, with a promise for further technology and more settlers to be shipped some years later, I would not accept. I would be afraid. I would fear the abortion of the colonization program at some stage, due to some reason. And there are a lot of reasons. The full [[independence from Earth]] is something I find very important. I will try to start an article about all the possible colonization strategies. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:11, 28 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Financing Imported Technology==<br />
A successful business model will be the key to success, so that more people and resources can be afforded. I propose a model similar to those used by many small nations, such as the Vatican, Monaco, San Marino, and some Pacific islands. These states also lack the infrastructure to manufacture advanced technology.<br />
<br />
My amazing gnomish three-step PowerMoney™ model involves:<br />
::# Massive amounts of regolith<br />
::# ?????????<br />
::# PROFIT!!!<br />
:::(Still working on the second step...)<br />
<br />
Seriously, though:<br />
::*'''Tourism''' - Certain people with a lot of money have historically been interested in Space Tourism, even when there are significant risks.<br />
::*'''Scientific Lease''' - A settlement can lease space and sell resources to governments or institutions that want to send their scientists to Mars. Alternately, settlers could be paid to do the work for them.<br />
::*'''Offworld Backup''' - Offsite backup is a vital aspect of data security for any business. It ensures data backup in the event of natural disasters. No location could be more offsite than Mars!<br />
::*'''Internet Domain Sale''' - People could buy the .mars domain.<br />
::*'''Licensed Merchandise''' - While Mars itself cannot be trademarked, likenesses of the settlement/settlers could be. Possibilities include stamps, coins, playsets, etc. First colonists would likely gain celebrity status.<br />
::*'''Land Speculation''' - While historically not the most respectable business, an actual presence on Mars lends much more credibility to the transaction.<br />
::*'''Tax Shelter''' - Legality may vary by your location...<br />
::*'''Consultancy''' - Advising governments in their own exploration/colonization efforts.<br />
::*'''Martian Cemetery''' - People might pay to have their ashes buried on Mars.<br />
::*'''Investment''' - I don't know much about this , but I hear that your mileage may vary...<br />
::*'''Host Hazardous Research''' - Nothing says bio-secure like an irradiated near-vacuum environment. Any facility would necessarily be isolated from the colony, of course. It would be the perfect location for biotechnology research without the risk to terrestrial life.<br />
::*'''Genetic Legacy''' - Ensure your genetic legacy by sending your sperm/eggs/embryos to Mars. Having descendants on two worlds is more secure.<br />
::*'''Commercial Sponsorship''' - Pay to place a logo on a wall, use "the official << ''insert commercial product here'' >> of Mars" in advertising.<br />
More to follow if I can think of them...<br />
<br />
The eventual goal, of course, is to get to a state where Martian settlements can rely on each other for most, if not all, technology. I think that the realization of such a goal will likely take several generations of colonists.<br/>--[[User:Laertes|Nate]] 01:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Many of the aspects listed here also apply to Lunar business models. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 10:47, 26 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:The financing ideas are brilliant! I think we need an article with this contents ... -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:11, 28 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Thanks. They are not all original, I can remember seeing similar ideas elsewhere. I will research to see what I can throw together. Lets call this [[interplanetary commerce]]. Feel free to give it a better title. --[[User:Laertes|Nate]] 00:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Help==<br />
Are there style guides for the wikis? I am looking for information on recommended colors, table styles, and any other formatting info besides the standard mediawiki stuff. I am kind of winging it, with oranges and reds for Marspedia, etc...<br />
<br />
:None that I am aware of. We all wing it using whatever looks best. If you would like to generate your own, it may become standard. When I think of a tool/template that is needed on lunarpedia to make articles easier, I generally make it as a subpage of my own user page. Its my cheatsheet method. If people like it and want to use it, it gets moved and becomes standard. Do you know how to make subpages? By the way, new message on Lunarpedia. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 20:10, 19 January 2009 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Phobos&diff=4290Talk:Phobos2009-01-02T08:28:26Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Administrative'''<br />
<br />
Articles "Phobos" and "Phobos Photos" merged by import procedure on this date. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 08:26, 2 January 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Discussion==<br />
<br />
Now there are at least two suggestions for the origin of the crater chains on Phobos that are more likely than the impact with Martian impact debris theory. We should not laugh at NASA's analysis. No explanations at all would be much worse. Praise NASA's courage and laugh with NASA. They can borrow the expanations offered here and the world will be better for a little less seriousness.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Phobos&diff=4289Talk:Phobos2009-01-02T08:26:59Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
<hr />
<div>Articles "Phobos" and "Phobos Photos" merged by import procedure on this date. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 08:26, 2 January 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Now there are at least two suggestions for the origin of the crater chains on Phobos that are more likely than the impact with Martian impact debris theory. We should not laugh at NASA's analysis. No explanations at all would be much worse. Praise NASA's courage and laugh with NASA. They can borrow the expanations offered here and the world will be better for a little less seriousness.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Phobos_Photos&diff=4288Phobos Photos2009-01-02T08:24:12Z<p>Jarogers2001: #REDIRECT Phobos</p>
<hr />
<div>#REDIRECT [[Phobos]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Phobos_Photos&diff=4287Talk:Phobos Photos2009-01-02T08:23:30Z<p>Jarogers2001: Talk:Phobos Photos moved to Talk:Phobos: Merger</p>
<hr />
<div>#REDIRECT [[Talk:Phobos]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Phobos&diff=4286Talk:Phobos2009-01-02T08:23:29Z<p>Jarogers2001: Talk:Phobos Photos moved to Talk:Phobos: Merger</p>
<hr />
<div>Now there are at least two suggestions for the origin of the crater chains on Phobos that are more likely than the impact with Martian impact debris theory. We should not laugh at NASA's analysis. No explanations at all would be much worse. Praise NASA's courage and laugh with NASA. They can borrow the expanations offered here and the world will be better for a little less seriousness.--[[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Phobos&diff=4285Phobos2009-01-02T08:22:03Z<p>Jarogers2001: 4 revision(s)</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Phobos_MGS.jpg|thumb|200px|right|A [[Mars Global Surveyor]] image of the moon Phobos.]]<br />
<br />
'''Phobos''' is the larger inner moon of the Mars system (the other, smaller moon is called [[Deimos]]). It is a dark body that appears to be composed of carbonaceous surface materials. Phobos' density is too low to be pure rock, however, and it is known to have significant porosity. These results led to the suggestion that Phobos might contain a substantial reservoir of ice. Spectral observations have ruled out the presence of [[water]] on the surface.<br />
<br />
Phobos is highly nonspherical, with dimensions of 27 × 21.6 × 18.8 km. Because of its shape alone, the [[gravity]] on its surface varies by about 210%; the tidal forces raised by Mars more than double this variation (to about 450%) because they compensate for a little more than half of Phobos' gravity at its sub- and anti-Mars poles.<br />
<br />
Deimos' orbit has an [[eccentricity]] of 0.0151 with an [[apoareion]] of 9518.8km.<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_%28moon%29 Wikipedia entry for Phobos.]</ref><br />
<br />
The Soviet spacecraft [[Phobos 2]] reported a faint but steady release of dust particles from Phobos, but the spacecraft failed before it could determine the nature of the material.<ref>[http://www.iki.rssi.ru/IPL/phobos.html The USSR's Phobos mission.]</ref> [[Phobos Photos|Recent images]] from [[Mars Global Surveyor]] indicate that Phobos is covered with a layer of fine-grained [[regolith]] at least 100 metres thick; it is believed to have been created by impacts from other bodies, but it is not known how the material stuck to an object with almost no gravity.<br />
<br />
==Danger for Future Mars Colonists==<br />
The [[orbit]] of Phobos is not constant. [[Tidal forces]] consume a certain amount of energy and lead to an annual loss in height of about 18 mm. Eventually, in some million years, the moon might drop onto the surface, destroying any colony. But there are [[Bringing down Phobos|concepts]] to mitigate the theat. <br />
<br />
It is also possible that Phobos will break up into a [[planetary ring]] once its orbit reaches the [[Roche Limit]] at about 7000km.<br />
<br />
==Phobos Photos==<br />
*There is good imagery at http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mro/gallery/press/20080409a.html . As the commentary states, there are obvious crater chains on Phobos. It is suggested that these roughly straight line chains may have been caused when debris from an impact on Mars later hit Phobos. <br />
*Here are suggestions from outside NASA. Phobos may be composed to a considerable extent of volatile solids. Stress concentration along a line caused some flow of material along a line causing that material to be preferentially exposed to the vacuum of space. In the course of a billion and more years enough material along that line sublimed away to cause the collapse of overlying material, leaving craters on the surface. This linear irregularity caused neighboring linear stress concentrations resulting in further subsidence and other linear crater chains. Alternatively Phobos could be an alien interstellar spaceship with rows of gun ports and sensors which is only disguised to look like a celestial object. <br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
[[category:Natural_Satellites]]<br />
[[category:phobos]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Phobos_Photos&diff=4280Phobos Photos2009-01-02T08:17:55Z<p>Jarogers2001: Merge in progress. Integrating content.</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Phobos_MGS.jpg|thumb|200px|right|A [[Mars Global Surveyor]] image of the moon Phobos.]]<br />
<br />
'''Phobos''' is the larger inner moon of the Mars system (the other, smaller moon is called [[Deimos]]). It is a dark body that appears to be composed of carbonaceous surface materials. Phobos' density is too low to be pure rock, however, and it is known to have significant porosity. These results led to the suggestion that Phobos might contain a substantial reservoir of ice. Spectral observations have ruled out the presence of [[water]] on the surface.<br />
<br />
Phobos is highly nonspherical, with dimensions of 27 × 21.6 × 18.8 km. Because of its shape alone, the [[gravity]] on its surface varies by about 210%; the tidal forces raised by Mars more than double this variation (to about 450%) because they compensate for a little more than half of Phobos' gravity at its sub- and anti-Mars poles.<br />
<br />
Deimos' orbit has an [[eccentricity]] of 0.0151 with an [[apoareion]] of 9518.8km.<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_%28moon%29 Wikipedia entry for Phobos.]</ref><br />
<br />
The Soviet spacecraft [[Phobos 2]] reported a faint but steady release of dust particles from Phobos, but the spacecraft failed before it could determine the nature of the material.<ref>[http://www.iki.rssi.ru/IPL/phobos.html The USSR's Phobos mission.]</ref> [[Phobos Photos|Recent images]] from [[Mars Global Surveyor]] indicate that Phobos is covered with a layer of fine-grained [[regolith]] at least 100 metres thick; it is believed to have been created by impacts from other bodies, but it is not known how the material stuck to an object with almost no gravity.<br />
<br />
==Danger for Future Mars Colonists==<br />
The [[orbit]] of Phobos is not constant. [[Tidal forces]] consume a certain amount of energy and lead to an annual loss in height of about 18 mm. Eventually, in some million years, the moon might drop onto the surface, destroying any colony. But there are [[Bringing down Phobos|concepts]] to mitigate the theat. <br />
<br />
It is also possible that Phobos will break up into a [[planetary ring]] once its orbit reaches the [[Roche Limit]] at about 7000km.<br />
<br />
==Phobos Photos==<br />
*There is good imagery at http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mro/gallery/press/20080409a.html . As the commentary states, there are obvious crater chains on Phobos. It is suggested that these roughly straight line chains may have been caused when debris from an impact on Mars later hit Phobos. <br />
*Here are suggestions from outside NASA. Phobos may be composed to a considerable extent of volatile solids. Stress concentration along a line caused some flow of material along a line causing that material to be preferentially exposed to the vacuum of space. In the course of a billion and more years enough material along that line sublimed away to cause the collapse of overlying material, leaving craters on the surface. This linear irregularity caused neighboring linear stress concentrations resulting in further subsidence and other linear crater chains. Alternatively Phobos could be an alien interstellar spaceship with rows of gun ports and sensors which is only disguised to look like a celestial object. <br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
[[category:Natural_Satellites]]<br />
[[category:phobos]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Phobos&diff=4284Phobos2009-01-02T08:17:55Z<p>Jarogers2001: Merge in progress. Integrating content.</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Phobos_MGS.jpg|thumb|200px|right|A [[Mars Global Surveyor]] image of the moon Phobos.]]<br />
<br />
'''Phobos''' is the larger inner moon of the Mars system (the other, smaller moon is called [[Deimos]]). It is a dark body that appears to be composed of carbonaceous surface materials. Phobos' density is too low to be pure rock, however, and it is known to have significant porosity. These results led to the suggestion that Phobos might contain a substantial reservoir of ice. Spectral observations have ruled out the presence of [[water]] on the surface.<br />
<br />
Phobos is highly nonspherical, with dimensions of 27 × 21.6 × 18.8 km. Because of its shape alone, the [[gravity]] on its surface varies by about 210%; the tidal forces raised by Mars more than double this variation (to about 450%) because they compensate for a little more than half of Phobos' gravity at its sub- and anti-Mars poles.<br />
<br />
Deimos' orbit has an [[eccentricity]] of 0.0151 with an [[apoareion]] of 9518.8km.<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_%28moon%29 Wikipedia entry for Phobos.]</ref><br />
<br />
The Soviet spacecraft [[Phobos 2]] reported a faint but steady release of dust particles from Phobos, but the spacecraft failed before it could determine the nature of the material.<ref>[http://www.iki.rssi.ru/IPL/phobos.html The USSR's Phobos mission.]</ref> [[Phobos Photos|Recent images]] from [[Mars Global Surveyor]] indicate that Phobos is covered with a layer of fine-grained [[regolith]] at least 100 metres thick; it is believed to have been created by impacts from other bodies, but it is not known how the material stuck to an object with almost no gravity.<br />
<br />
==Danger for Future Mars Colonists==<br />
The [[orbit]] of Phobos is not constant. [[Tidal forces]] consume a certain amount of energy and lead to an annual loss in height of about 18 mm. Eventually, in some million years, the moon might drop onto the surface, destroying any colony. But there are [[Bringing down Phobos|concepts]] to mitigate the theat. <br />
<br />
It is also possible that Phobos will break up into a [[planetary ring]] once its orbit reaches the [[Roche Limit]] at about 7000km.<br />
<br />
==Phobos Photos==<br />
*There is good imagery at http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mro/gallery/press/20080409a.html . As the commentary states, there are obvious crater chains on Phobos. It is suggested that these roughly straight line chains may have been caused when debris from an impact on Mars later hit Phobos. <br />
*Here are suggestions from outside NASA. Phobos may be composed to a considerable extent of volatile solids. Stress concentration along a line caused some flow of material along a line causing that material to be preferentially exposed to the vacuum of space. In the course of a billion and more years enough material along that line sublimed away to cause the collapse of overlying material, leaving craters on the surface. This linear irregularity caused neighboring linear stress concentrations resulting in further subsidence and other linear crater chains. Alternatively Phobos could be an alien interstellar spaceship with rows of gun ports and sensors which is only disguised to look like a celestial object. <br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
[[category:Natural_Satellites]]<br />
[[category:phobos]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Missions&diff=4279Missions2009-01-02T07:57:23Z<p>Jarogers2001: #REDIRECT</p>
<hr />
<div>#REDIRECT [[Category:Missions]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Lunarpedia&diff=4278Lunarpedia2009-01-02T07:56:46Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[http://www.lunarpedia.org/ Lunarpedia]''' is a wiki for planning to get back to the Moon. Its topic area covers everything that can have a Lunar settlement perspective. Lunarpedia is meant to be the Moon Society's successor to the Artemis Data Book, this time allowing contributions from space enthusiasts everywhere. After it's initial success, an idea hatched among Lunarpedia contributors that the Wiki concept could be applied to [[Missions | Mars missions]] and enthusiasts. The result is Marspedia.<br />
<br />
{{Subminimal}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Resources]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=List_of_Mars_Settlement_Links&diff=4277List of Mars Settlement Links2009-01-02T07:52:00Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
<hr />
<div>This page introduces some existing '''sites on the internet about Mars colonization'''.<br />
<br />
*[http://www.marssociety.org Mars Society] has the ''"goal of the exploration and settlement of the Red Planet"''.<br />
*[http://www.redcolony.com Red Colony] is an ''"international symposium ... with a desire to colonize and terraform Mars"''.<br />
*[http://www.marsdrive.com MarsDrive] ''"is an international organisation dedicated to the exploration and settlement of space"''. It was founded in 2005 at Red Colony.<br />
*[http://www.marsgravity.org The Mars Gravity Biosatellite Program] is about ''"to study the effects of Martian gravity on mammals"''.<br />
*[http://marshome.org/ The Mars Homestead Project] is the main project of the [[Mars Foundation]] with the goal ''"to build a growing, permanent settlement beyond the Earth".''<br />
<br />
==More sites to find==<br />
*[http://search.dmoz.org/cgi-bin/search?search=mars Open Directory Project: Mars]<br />
<br />
[[category:Resources]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=User_talk:T.Neo&diff=4274User talk:T.Neo2008-12-30T22:23:47Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Damage Control==<br />
Many thanks for your efforts on reverting recent attacks (as well as your contributions). The sooner the damage is reverted is always the better. I have changed the protection levels on the main page and on the water article. The main downside is that if you wish to make a change to the main page you'll now need to bug one of the admins. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 16:58, 2 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Thanks. I'll be happy to revert any vandalism I come across. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 07:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==administrivia==<br />
Image has been deleted, per your request. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 22:23, 30 December 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Solar_concentrator&diff=4260Solar concentrator2008-12-28T02:22:23Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* Dangers */</p>
<hr />
<div>A '''solar concentrator''' concentrates the power of the [[sun]] onto a small area. This [[energy]] is harnessed in a variety of ways.<br />
<br />
==Designs==<br />
<br />
===Lenses===<br />
A variety of [[lense]] designs are used to concentrate sunlight. A lense may be a simple piece of curved [[glass]] or [[plastics|plastic]], or a complex [[Fresnel lense]].<br />
<br />
===Mirrors===<br />
Fields of [[mirrors]] are used in some concentrated solar facilities on Earth. The individual mirrors rotate to track the sun.<br />
<br />
===Fiber Optics===<br />
<br />
==Utilization of Focused Solar Radiation==<br />
<br />
===Photovoltaics===<br />
Solar concentrators are often used in conjunction with [[solar panel|solar panels]] to increase the panel's output. This maximizes the efficiency of a limited number of solar panels.<br />
<br />
===Thermal Engines===<br />
The energy of the sun can boil liquids, causing changes in [[pressure]]. These pressure changes are harnessed by [[thermal engines]]. It is likely that liquids other than [[water]] will be used, due to the low temeratures on the surface. Common thermal engine designs include the [[Sterling engine]] and the [[steam engine]].<br />
<br />
===Thermoelectric Generators===<br />
[[thermoelectrics|Thermoelectric]] materials convert heat into [[electricity]].<br />
<br />
===Photosynthesis===<br />
[[Greenhouse|Greenhouses]] are a good target for solar concentration. The natural sunlight on [[Mars]] is less than half that on [[Earth]].<br />
<br />
===Lighting===<br />
Concentrated sunlight can be used to light [[settlement|settlements]] during the day.<br />
<br />
==Dangers==<br />
Concentrated solar [[radiation]] can become hazardous in some situations.<br />
<br />
===Radiation Damage===<br />
If solar radiation is concentrated for use in greenhouses or settlements, the harmful parts of the electromagnetic spectrum need to be filtered.<br />
<br />
===Vision Damage===<br />
Looking directly into concentrated sunlight can damage vision.<br />
<br />
===Heat Damage===<br />
Objects passing through the focus of a solar concentrator can be exposed to intense light and extremely high temperatures.<br />
<br />
[[Category: Concepts]]<br />
[[Category: Energy]]<br />
[[Category:Lo-tech]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Bringing_down_Phobos&diff=4251Talk:Bringing down Phobos2008-12-26T23:03:01Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Lost information==<br />
Although I like [http://www.marspedia.org/index.php?title=Bringing_down_Phobos&diff=3248&oldid=3180 the recent change], I do not fully agree with it, because the following information got lost:<br />
*time until phobos becomes a real threat<br />
*obstacle for building a space elevator<br />
*several technological approaches to lift Phobos into a higher orbit (I doubt the rocket technology is the best, for it consumes vast amounts of chemical fuels)<br />
-- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 06:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Sorry, but rocket technology is pretty much all we have right now, but in response to that, instead of a resource consuming chemical rocket, what about a nuclear rocket instead? If there are any volatile materials within Phobos, they could be utilized as fuel. I seriously doubt the feasibilty of space elevators. Beside that, phobos could act as a way station for spacecraft coming to and from Mars. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 09:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Why are you in doubt about the feasibility of space elevators? I find it extremely useful (and simple!) if used only for landing on the Martian surface. I look forward to read your concerns in the article [[space elevator]] ;-) -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 07:24, 20 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Why not simply re-oreintate Phobos to an aereostationry orbit, and use it as an anchor for the space elevator. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 12:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
:You would need vast amounts of energy (fuel) for changing the orbit of such a heavy body. Can you calculate the needed energy? I think, a much smaller counterweight will do, e.g. a heap of burnt out rocket stages, maybe filled with some rocks from the moons. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 12:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I cannot, unfortunatly, calculate the amount of fuel required. The problem I have with this article, is that it is too destructive. Small bodies, like Phobos and Deimos, will be the main source of goods in the solar system, due to the fact that it takes little energy to lift off of their surface.<br />
Phobos could be moved into a higher orbit with low thrust over a long time. Ion engines come to mind.<br />
By the time terraforming begins or a space elevator becomes plausible, we will have the technology to boost Phobos into a higher orbit. I propose moving to a neutral name i.e. "Manipulating the orbit of Phobos", and then having "deorbit" and "manipulation of orbit" sections. How does that sound?<br />
[[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 09:42, 27 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:There is nothing saying that Phobos has to be brought down. The purpose of an article in these pedias is to provide information on possibilities. Phobos may indeed be brought down, or it may be boosted, or it may be mined to nothing. I prefer mining. The point is that reasons for actions, methods for achieving actions, and possible consequences and summaries of alternatives to those actions should be included in any article written. The summary can then be linked to a full article describing the alternative. If you see something that is missing from an article, please add it. In the future it will be decided what the proper course of action is based on the current level of technology and economics of that time period. The goal is to provide a guide for all possibilities. Actual numbers are a plus and will indeed be necessary for any effort. If no numbers are available it should be stated that this area needs further research/study or should be tagged with an "incomplete" template for the article or section. It's not so much a debate as it is a "how to" guide for manipulating the future. Cliche, but remember you're old D&D modules. If the party kills the phobos, go to page 9. If the party robs phobos of its riches, go to page 7. If the party strings phobos up by its neck, go to page 8. Removing info from articles is unnecessary as we need to provide as much information as possible in order to guide a proper course of action. :D -- [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 07:35, 28 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Solar sails are suggested, and so are colliding a number of small asteroids into it.<br />
I'm not so sure about this. I dont think that solar sails could be an efficient option, and I don't see how collisions with asteroids could boost Phobos up over time. A gravity tractor is also suggested, but what propels the gravity tractor? I'll assume that the tractor is propelled by chemical rockets, which rfc has rightly deemed unefficient. The only good attributes of a gravity tractor is that is does not make contact with the surface (Helpful with rubble piles such as Phobos) and it is not impeded by the rotation of the asteroid. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 15:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Merge Request==<br />
What do you guys think about merging this article and [[Phobos Photos]] with [[Phobos]]? With all of the content we could probably spiff it up to Feature quality. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 23:03, 26 December 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Solar_concentrator&diff=4250Talk:Solar concentrator2008-12-26T22:58:40Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
<hr />
<div>Aren't solar concentrators commonly used in conjunction with solar panels to increase the panel's output? This would maximize the efficiency of the limited number of solar panels. If no one objects, I will put several sections in the article, including the photovoltaic application. <br/>--[[User:Laertes|Nate]] 22:30, 26 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Yep. They're also used in solar water heaters and solar pyrolysis. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 22:58, 26 December 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Laertes&diff=4240User talk:Laertes2008-12-26T10:47:13Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* Financing Imported Technology */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi Laertes! Welcome to Marspedia! My name is Ian O'Neill, one of the admins here and I'm available most of the time if you need any assistance. We're hoping for a big 2008 for lots of new additions to the Marspedia wiki, so it's great to have you on board. Hopefully see you soon -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 06:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hi, you are doing a great job here:-) My English is not so good, and I really appreciate every enhancement. Don't worry about lack in space experience. Nobody went to Mars so far, and hence nobody knows how to do it. There are many challenges that are completely new, and every contribution is welcome. Enjoy! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 10:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Welcome back! - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 06:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Vital Technology ==<br />
<br />
Hi Laertes, my understanding of a Martian settlement is a rather spartan economy, that can be run by a limited number of persons. Which technology is really vital? This seems to be a very important questions. Recently I have been thinking a lot about this question.<br />
<br />
First of all, I wonder how big such a colony must be, in oder to produce everything on their own. Probably, an autonomous colony can not be run by 5 people. It requires more manpower, but how much more? I am trying to get an idea how the start of an autonomous colony may look like. There is probably a certain minimum of technology, and therefore a minimum of persons necessary. In order to find that out, I am trying to leave out all comfort and all unnecessary dead freight. Just keeping the inevitable. Pure survival. This is what I am trying to find out at the moment.<br />
<br />
Because of the vast effort of shipment, I am pretty sure that the start of a Martian colony will be a rather small one. Let's say, a group of 5 persons make the start. They can start to build an autonomous colony, based upon technology shipped from Earth to Mars. But they can not maintain all systems including production of all spare parts from local resources. At least I am really in doubt about that. May be, we can bring 20 persons to Mars, which is very very expensive. May be, we can bring 50 people to Mars, in a time frame of 20 years. This is an optimistic (and may be an unrealistic) imagination, though. And with this limited number of persons we have to find a way to build a livelihood from scratch, albeit with settlers with a huge amount of enthusiasm, but still with heavy limitations in maintenance manpower.<br />
<br />
I am still not sure whether or not such an autonomous colony is possible at all. If it is possible with such a limited manpower, it can not include complex chemical and microelectronic factories. I think, the settlers will be busy primarily with energy and food production, which is extremely cheap on Earth, and which is hard on Mars. On Earth we can afford doing further business, because the food is growing almost of its own volition. <br />
<br />
That is what I am mostly concerned about at the moment, and I just want to explain my thoughts to you. Probably, I will not be able to contribute much to Marspedia during the holidays, but I'm back next Monday. I am happy about your being part of the team. Merry X-mas to you and your family. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 21:55, 22 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==The Need for Advanced Technology==<br />
Merry Christmas to you and yours too, RFC :). I tend to think more long term (both views are critical).<br />
I think the critical mass for a sustainable, self reliant colony will be a little larger. At a minimum, they will need to replace or repair critical components, such as life support, medical technology, food production, etc. Many of these require complex electronics and chemistry. In addition, there need to be enough reproducing individuals to avoid inbreeding (frozen embreyos/sperm are alternatives, of course). An initial colony could be the size you are suggesting, as long as more colonists arrive later. <br />
<br />
In my mind, an autonomous settlement is not a closed system without any outside input, but rather an independent sovereign state, fully in control of its destiny. In that regard, it need not supply all of its needs locally. Even on Earth, no sovereign state would think of eliminating all trade with other nations. Napoleon tried such a strategy, which ultimately failed. Until critical mass is attained, the autonomous settlement will need to buy certain advanced technology.<br />
<br />
==Financing Imported Technology==<br />
A successful business model will be the key to success, so that more people and resources can be afforded. I propose a model similar to those used by many small nations, such as the Vatican, Monaco, San Marino, and some Pacific islands. These states also lack the infrastructure to manufacture advanced technology.<br />
<br />
My amazing gnomish three-step PowerMoney™ model involves:<br />
::# Massive amounts of regolith<br />
::# ?????????<br />
::# PROFIT!!!<br />
:::(Still working on the second step...)<br />
<br />
Seriously, though:<br />
::*'''Tourism''' - Certain people with a lot of money have historically been interested in Space Tourism, even when there are significant risks.<br />
::*'''Scientific Lease''' - A settlement can lease space and sell resources to governments or institutions that want to send their scientists to Mars. Alternately, settlers could be paid to do the work for them.<br />
::*'''Offworld Backup''' - Offsite backup is a vital aspect of data security for any business. It ensures data backup in the event of natural disasters. No location could be more offsite than Mars!<br />
::*'''Internet Domain Sale''' - People could buy the .mars domain.<br />
::*'''Licensed Merchandise''' - While Mars itself cannot be trademarked, likenesses of the settlement/settlers could be. Possibilities include stamps, coins, playsets, etc. First colonists would likely gain celebrity status.<br />
::*'''Land Speculation''' - While historically not the most respectable business, an actual presence on Mars lends much more credibility to the transaction.<br />
::*'''Tax Shelter''' - Legality may vary by your location...<br />
::*'''Consultancy''' - Advising governments in their own exploration/colonization efforts.<br />
::*'''Martian Cemetery''' - People might pay to have their ashes buried on Mars.<br />
::*'''Investment''' - I don't know much about this , but I hear that your mileage may vary...<br />
::*'''Host Hazardous Research''' - Nothing says bio-secure like an irradiated near-vacuum environment. Any facility would necessarily be isolated from the colony, of course. It would be the perfect location for biotechnology research without the risk to terrestrial life.<br />
::*'''Genetic Legacy''' - Ensure your genetic legacy by sending your sperm/eggs/embryos to Mars. Having descendants on two worlds is more secure.<br />
::*'''Commercial Sponsorship''' - Pay to place a logo on a wall, use "the official << ''insert commercial product here'' >> of Mars" in advertising.<br />
More to follow if I can think of them...<br />
<br />
The eventual goal, of course, is to get to a state where Martian settlements can rely on each other for most, if not all, technology. I think that the realization of such a goal will likely take several generations of colonists.<br/>--[[User:Laertes|Nate]] 01:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Many of the aspects listed here also apply to Lunar business models. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 10:47, 26 December 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Old_Home&diff=4239Talk:Old Home2008-12-26T10:26:52Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* Promotion */</p>
<hr />
<div>This page has been protected to avoid anonymous attacks. <br />
<br />
=Main Page development=<br />
I have made an attempt to upgrade the front page to improve design, ease of use and accessability to the wiki. I have tried to focus on accessibility for new users as we need to increase online interest in our efforts.<br />
<br />
Some recent updates:<br />
*Inclusion of a "[[Featured articles]]" on the front page (see [[user:Ioneill]] for development details).<br />
*Creating [[Marspedia:About]] page to move bulk text from main page.<br />
*Creating "Marspedia News" section on front page - for development purposes (i.e. new site developments/announcements), '''not''' to advertise new content.<br />
<br />
Unresolved areas:<br />
*Copyright notice, should it be moved to a less-prominent position?<br />
<br />
For now, over to you! -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 04:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<hr/><br />
<br />
:I like the new appearance. It is better than ever! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 07:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::It looks wonderful; I can't wait to steal it for Lunarpedia. 8) The copyright rules notice is too large and unwieldy, and as you may have noticed, in over a year I've not figured out a more compact solution that imparts the required information. Maybe a terse summary with a link to a more detailed version? How much can we pare down the summary if so? --[[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 08:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Hi James, I have seen several occurrences of "8)" in your talk. What does it mean? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It's an emoticon, akin to ''':-)'''. I wear glasses, thus the eight instead of the colon... --[[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 11:28, 23 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Cool, glad to get people's opinion on it. Kinda melded the Wikipedia format with our own - hopefully we'll be a unique set of wikis in time. I've been looking at the copyright notice, and I think we can work with what we have for now. We must keep in mind, we are in the development phase of this project, so there are going to be a lot of rough edges. As we will (hopefully) have a continuous, and increasing influx of articles, newcomers will need to read the GFDL terms and conditions first. Also, having the copyright notice there is in keeping with Lunarpedia etc., so it's a good visual aid to see we are all in the same "club"!<br />
:James, feel free to copy any of the design aspects and stick them into Lunarpedia, will be nice to see a cool blue and grey version 8) I think the divs and tables are up to par. Seems to be formatted correctly in Firefox and IE, so there shouldn't be too many issues with other operating systems. I've noticed a slight loss in border on the right side of the copyright notice when using FF, will get that fixed. <br />
:-- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 20:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Wikipedia based articles ==<br />
I personally support the public domain license, but isin't it alot easier to just fork all the required articles from Wikipedia, then edit them from there? Many articles should be almost complete copies from Wikipedia. Having a "GFDL" namespace seems confusing. [[User:Nawi|Nawi]] 11:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I don't think there are many articles that should be almost complete copies from Wikipedia. Every Marspedia article is written in the context of building a settlement on Mars, with special orientation to the Martian circumstances. When I started to work for Marspedia I had a similar idea - and an enlightening [[User_talk:Ioneill#Contents from Wikipedia?|discussion with Ioneill]]. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Captcha ==<br />
Can the captcha be disabled for registered users or something, because it's pretty annoying. [[User:Nawi|Nawi]] 15:12, 29 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Hi Nawi, I agree with you. Since I am an ordinary user I can not change this, but I can give you some explanation about the working principle of the captcha. The ''"gibberish captcha"'' is designed to pop up if the first word of an article is going to be changed <small>(Please see also [[Marspedia:Captcha]])</small>. Also, a captcha pops up for edits that add URLs and for Userlogin. We implemented the ''"gibberish captcha"'' when we experienced frequent attacks by a bot inserting gibberish into Marspedia articles. This captcha works fine, but is certainly a bit annoying when creating new articles. Most edits, however, should not trigger this captcha, since most edits leave the article's first word as is. If you experience a different behaviour, please let me know. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 07:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Please disable the captcha. It is '''''EXTREMELY''''' annoying. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 13:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Possibly [[user:Strangelv|Strangelv]] can disable it for registered users, but I have no idea how to do it. Perhaps it is not possible for the captchas to distinguish registered users from IPs. After all we have to find a good balance of usability and security. If we had no captchas at all, we would get flooded with a torrent of automated spam (as we experienced before the activation of the captchas). -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Fountdation of an autonomous colony ==<br />
<br />
Is the current FA going to stay on the Main Page forever? I swear is hasn't changed in the last 5 days. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 12:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
:The process of nomination and featuring is not maintained on a daily basis, because nobody is willing to spend the effort so far. For a history please see [[Featured articles]]. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 12:56, 24 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
O.K. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 09:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::If possible, could someone write a step by step guide to featuring an article? I mean the coding procedure. I have FTP access if such access is necessary to change the article. I also need to do so on Lunarpedia, but haven't had time to dig through the code to figure out a way to wing it without screwing things up. I doubt that future users will want to go through all of that. -- [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 07:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Nevermind, I figured it out. You guys put your heads together and decide which article you think should be featured and then clear it with Ian. I have this talk paged watched, so I'll know if you post your final decision here. I'll do the grunt work if Ian finds himself otherwise occupied. -- [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 08:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Featured Article==<br />
I would like to nominate [[Water]] as the next featured article, although it might be useful to quickly go over it and the most recent results from the lander to make sure it's up to date... -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 10:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Promotion==<br />
<br />
I've just submitted Lunarpedia and Marspedia to the DMOZ ODP.<br />
<br />
[http://www.dmoz.org/ http://www.dmoz.org/]<br />
<br />
I recommend that you also submit them in order to increase traffic and speed up the process of our links being approved. ODP also populates these to other search engines. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 10:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Old_Home&diff=4238Talk:Old Home2008-12-26T10:26:13Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
<hr />
<div>This page has been protected to avoid anonymous attacks. <br />
<br />
=Main Page development=<br />
I have made an attempt to upgrade the front page to improve design, ease of use and accessability to the wiki. I have tried to focus on accessibility for new users as we need to increase online interest in our efforts.<br />
<br />
Some recent updates:<br />
*Inclusion of a "[[Featured articles]]" on the front page (see [[user:Ioneill]] for development details).<br />
*Creating [[Marspedia:About]] page to move bulk text from main page.<br />
*Creating "Marspedia News" section on front page - for development purposes (i.e. new site developments/announcements), '''not''' to advertise new content.<br />
<br />
Unresolved areas:<br />
*Copyright notice, should it be moved to a less-prominent position?<br />
<br />
For now, over to you! -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 04:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<hr/><br />
<br />
:I like the new appearance. It is better than ever! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 07:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::It looks wonderful; I can't wait to steal it for Lunarpedia. 8) The copyright rules notice is too large and unwieldy, and as you may have noticed, in over a year I've not figured out a more compact solution that imparts the required information. Maybe a terse summary with a link to a more detailed version? How much can we pare down the summary if so? --[[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 08:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Hi James, I have seen several occurrences of "8)" in your talk. What does it mean? -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 09:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It's an emoticon, akin to ''':-)'''. I wear glasses, thus the eight instead of the colon... --[[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 11:28, 23 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Cool, glad to get people's opinion on it. Kinda melded the Wikipedia format with our own - hopefully we'll be a unique set of wikis in time. I've been looking at the copyright notice, and I think we can work with what we have for now. We must keep in mind, we are in the development phase of this project, so there are going to be a lot of rough edges. As we will (hopefully) have a continuous, and increasing influx of articles, newcomers will need to read the GFDL terms and conditions first. Also, having the copyright notice there is in keeping with Lunarpedia etc., so it's a good visual aid to see we are all in the same "club"!<br />
:James, feel free to copy any of the design aspects and stick them into Lunarpedia, will be nice to see a cool blue and grey version 8) I think the divs and tables are up to par. Seems to be formatted correctly in Firefox and IE, so there shouldn't be too many issues with other operating systems. I've noticed a slight loss in border on the right side of the copyright notice when using FF, will get that fixed. <br />
:-- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 20:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Wikipedia based articles ==<br />
I personally support the public domain license, but isin't it alot easier to just fork all the required articles from Wikipedia, then edit them from there? Many articles should be almost complete copies from Wikipedia. Having a "GFDL" namespace seems confusing. [[User:Nawi|Nawi]] 11:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I don't think there are many articles that should be almost complete copies from Wikipedia. Every Marspedia article is written in the context of building a settlement on Mars, with special orientation to the Martian circumstances. When I started to work for Marspedia I had a similar idea - and an enlightening [[User_talk:Ioneill#Contents from Wikipedia?|discussion with Ioneill]]. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Captcha ==<br />
Can the captcha be disabled for registered users or something, because it's pretty annoying. [[User:Nawi|Nawi]] 15:12, 29 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Hi Nawi, I agree with you. Since I am an ordinary user I can not change this, but I can give you some explanation about the working principle of the captcha. The ''"gibberish captcha"'' is designed to pop up if the first word of an article is going to be changed <small>(Please see also [[Marspedia:Captcha]])</small>. Also, a captcha pops up for edits that add URLs and for Userlogin. We implemented the ''"gibberish captcha"'' when we experienced frequent attacks by a bot inserting gibberish into Marspedia articles. This captcha works fine, but is certainly a bit annoying when creating new articles. Most edits, however, should not trigger this captcha, since most edits leave the article's first word as is. If you experience a different behaviour, please let me know. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 07:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Please disable the captcha. It is '''''EXTREMELY''''' annoying. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 13:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Possibly [[user:Strangelv|Strangelv]] can disable it for registered users, but I have no idea how to do it. Perhaps it is not possible for the captchas to distinguish registered users from IPs. After all we have to find a good balance of usability and security. If we had no captchas at all, we would get flooded with a torrent of automated spam (as we experienced before the activation of the captchas). -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 18:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Fountdation of an autonomous colony ==<br />
<br />
Is the current FA going to stay on the Main Page forever? I swear is hasn't changed in the last 5 days. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 12:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
:The process of nomination and featuring is not maintained on a daily basis, because nobody is willing to spend the effort so far. For a history please see [[Featured articles]]. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 12:56, 24 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
O.K. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 09:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::If possible, could someone write a step by step guide to featuring an article? I mean the coding procedure. I have FTP access if such access is necessary to change the article. I also need to do so on Lunarpedia, but haven't had time to dig through the code to figure out a way to wing it without screwing things up. I doubt that future users will want to go through all of that. -- [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 07:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Nevermind, I figured it out. You guys put your heads together and decide which article you think should be featured and then clear it with Ian. I have this talk paged watched, so I'll know if you post your final decision here. I'll do the grunt work if Ian finds himself otherwise occupied. -- [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 08:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Featured Article==<br />
I would like to nominate [[Water]] as the next featured article, although it might be useful to quickly go over it and the most recent results from the lander to make sure it's up to date... -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 10:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Promotion==<br />
<br />
I've just submitted Lunarpedia and Marspedia to the DMOZ ODP.<br />
<br />
[http://www.dmoz.org/]<br />
<br />
I recommend that you also submit them in order to increase traffic and speed up the process of our links being approved. ODP also populates these to other search engines. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 10:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Electronics&diff=4217Electronics2008-12-19T06:14:49Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* Semiconductors */ typo</p>
<hr />
<div>'''Electronics''' is a technology for [[automation]] and the basis for modern information technology. For remote controlled explorations and during the setup phase of a [[settlement]] on [[Mars]] it is required for [[radio link]] and data processing.<br />
<br />
==Electron tube==<br />
This is the oldest kind of electronics. It is made from [[glass]] and [[:category:metal|metal]]. Compared with semiconductor electronics the tubes are big, power consuming, but they are easy to produce. They are [[radiation]]-proof, which makes it suitable for long term applications under Martian [[environmental conditions]]. Nevertheless, the [[wear lifespan]] is limited by abrasion of the heating electrode.<br />
<br />
==Semiconductors==<br />
This is the modern kind of electronics. It allows ultra-compact devices with low power consumption, but it requires a hi-tech industry to produce the material and the structures. Since the material is damageable by radiation, it must be shielded carefully and has a limited wear lifespan depending on the intensity of the radiation. The electrical parameters are strongly influenced by the temperature.<br />
<br />
==See also==<br />
*[[Pneumatics]]<br />
*[[Electricity]]<br />
<br />
{{stub}}<br />
[[Category:Hi-tech]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Water&diff=4216Water2008-12-19T06:12:26Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* Glaciers */</p>
<hr />
<div>'''Water''' is a chemical compound consisting of a single [[oxygen]] atom bonded to two [[hydrogen]] atoms (''chemical symbols:'' H<sub>2</sub>O). Clean water is essential to almost all known forms of life, and its unique properties make it invaluable for most industrial processes. Although water in the liquid phase is abundant on Earth, its scarcity on Mars make it into a critical resource to be treasured. <br />
<br />
==Evidence for water on Mars== <br />
<br />
Starting in 2004, the evidence of the presence of water on Mars has been mounting. The [[Opportunity]] rover discovered geological markers - stratification and cross-bedding - near its landing site which pointed to significant flows of water at some time in Mars' history. Around the same time the [[Mars Express]] orbiter detected the spectral evidence of water present in the polar regions. In 2005, Mars Express confirmed this by locating an area of solid water ice near the north pole. The [[Phoenix]] lander confirmed the existence of water ice in Mars.<br />
<br />
===Measuring the abundance of water ice=== <br />
[[Image:MARSIS.jpg|thumb|200px|right|A MARSIS map of Mars' south pole ice deposits.]] <br />
On March 15, 2007, [[Mars Express]]' mission control released more news of extensive frozen water discovered at the Martian [[south pole]]. These new and highly accurate measurements predict that if the ice were to be melted, the whole planet would be covered in a liquid layer 11 meters deep. Although it has been known for many years that the poles have an abundance of ice, it has never been measured to this degree of accuracy. The data comes from the Mars Advanced Radar for Subsurface and Ionospheric Sounding (MARSIS) currently mapping the north pole to gain a better understanding of how much frozen water may be contained there. MARSIS can probe over 2 miles below the Martian surface and has found extensive layered deposits of ice. <br />
<br />
Mars shows evidence of extensive liquid water flowing on its surface in the past and it is the focus of many Mars missions to find out how this water has leaked away over the millennia. Martian polar ice may be the culprit, suggesting Mars may once have had a warmer climate, slowly cooling as the atmosphere became a more inefficient insulator for the meager heating from the distant Sun. <br />
<br />
===Evidence for liquid water?=== <br />
<br />
Future manned exploration on Mars will require a source of water whether it is in the form of ice or sub-surface [[aquifers]]. The [[Mars Express]] orbiter has uncovered some confusing measurements suggesting there may be liquid water accompanying all that ice. MARSIS bounced back data suggesting at least 90% of the layered deposits under the polar cap are indeed supplies of ice, but a thin layer resembling liquid water is also evident. It is hard to understand the existence of liquid water at the extremely low temperatures predicted. Perhaps high pressures or small geological processes may explain these observations. Another orbiter, NASA's Mars Global Surveyor, has also returned some exciting new evidence for the existence of new flows of liquid water on the Martian surface away from the frozen poles. {{science question|What pressures are required to keep water in a liquid phase at temperatures as low as that on the surface of Mars? - [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]]}} <br />
<br />
The [[Mars Global Surveyor]] arrived at the Red Planet on September 11, 1997 and returned a decade of data on the evolution of the planet before it was lost in November 2006 through energy loss. It was Mars' longest operational artificial satellite. The Mars Orbiter Camera (MOC) onboard revealed new deposits possibly carried as sediment by flowing water in two locations in the past 7 years (press release dated December 6, 2006)<ref>[http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/newsroom/20061206a.html NASA Press Release: ''NASA Images Suggest Water Still Flows in Brief Spurts on Mars'']</ref>. In images taken in August 1999 and September 2006 of the same location ([[Centauri Montes]] Region), a bright deposit measuring several hundred meters long is evident in the 2006 image but not in the 1999 image. A similar feature was observed at a different location from 2001 to 2005 at [[Terra Sirenum]]. It is worth noting that both locations are in equatorial regions, not usually associated with ice or liquid water. This suggests liquid water remains a characteristic of the Mars landscape, if only sporadically. These discoveries have increased the enthusiasm for the search for [[microbes|microbial life]], but the implications for manned exploration are huge. If there are pockets of liquid water just below the surface, Mars may yet be able to provide our future pioneers with natural springs more familiar on Earth. <br />
[[Image:Water_deposit.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Evidence from the [[Mars Global Surveyor]] MOC instrument that spurts of liquid water may sporadically flow on the Martian surface]] <br />
However, surface water on Mars is short-lived. The Martian atmosphere is very thin (a pressure of 7 millibars, <1% that of Earth's thick atmosphere) and cold (an average global temperature of -55°C or -67F), these two factors deny any long-term existence of liquid water. Surface liquid water will quickly freeze and [[sublimation|sublime]] into the atmosphere, bypassing the [[triple point|liquid phase]]. The phase transition for H<sub>2</sub>O on the surface of Mars occurs below the "[[triple point]]" on the phase diagram so the recent observations of sediment on the surface will have been deposited very quickly by short lived "spurts" of water. Just how short-lived these spurts of water are it is unknown, but a significant volume must have created a formidable river to carry sediment several hundred meters. <br />
<br />
Although there may be other explanations for these long "channels" of sediment, such as rock slides or wind-blown [[sand]] features, the appearance of the deposits seem very water-like. Michael Malin of Malin Space Science Systems, a mission scientist for the MOC says, "''The shapes of these deposits are what you would expect to see if the material were carried by flowing water... they have finger-like branches at the downhill end and easily diverted around small obstacles''".<ref>[http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/newsroom/20061206a.html NASA Press Release: ''NASA Images Suggest Water Still Flows in Brief Spurts on Mars'']</ref><br />
<br />
===Mineral alterations by ancient water flows=== <br />
<br />
Further support for the existence of flowing water comes from the first observations made by NASA's [[Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter]] (launched in 2005) where the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera spotted small fractures and cracks in the Martian canyon, [[Candor Chasma]]. The cracks analyzed show signs of mineral alteration in the rock exposed - a sign that liquid water once flowed through these sub-surface pipes. <br />
<br />
:"''What caught my eye was the bleaching or lack of dark material along the fracture. That is a sign of mineral alteration by fluids that moved through those joints. It reminded me of something I had seen during field studies in Utah, that is light-tone zones, or 'haloes,' on either side of cracks through darker sandstone''" - Dr. Chris Okubo, a geologist at the University of Arizona, Tucson. <br />
<br />
Although this is a sign that the liquid water has since disappeared from these cracks and fractures in the canyon rock, it is interesting to find evidence for ancient water in abundance. <br />
<br />
===Other discoveries=== <br />
*The 1996 [[Mars Pathfinder]] mission discovered plentiful evidence that its landing site, [[Ares Vallis]], was once the bottom of a huge valley system eroded by ancient water.<br />
<br />
==More sources of water==<br />
<br />
===Atmosphere===<br />
The Martian [[atmosphere]] contains a small percentage of water. With liquefaction technology the production of water should be able all over the planet's surface. An [[experimental setup#water out of the atmosphere|experimental setup]] is necessary to find out all about the viability of this approach.<br />
<br />
===Caves===<br />
Since the discovery of [[caves]] scientists believe in the possibility of water ice on the ground of the caves. Water ice is abundant under the ground atleast near the poles, and probably elsewhere too.<br />
<br />
===Glaciers===<br />
The [[Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter]] has found evidence of [[glacier|glaciers]] covered in regolith.<ref>http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2008/nov/HQ_08-304_MRO_BuriedGlaciers.html</ref> Radar reflection data indicates that these are not Rock Glaciers that have been previously suspected on Mars, but instead are thick glacial ice covered in a thin layer of debris. The buried glaciers lie in the Hellas Basin region of Mars' southern hemisphere with similar aprons detected extending from cliffs in the northern hemisphere.<br />
<br />
==Usage==<br />
<br />
===Drinking water===<br />
The [[human]] metabolism requires regularly the intake of fresh water. Since water is rare on Mars the [[recycling]] of all excretion is a must. There are two ways: Wastewater can be [[technical wastewater treatment|treated with technical means]], which is partially done on the [[ISS]] already. Alternatively, the water can be kept in a nearly natural cycle, using parts of the [[greenhouse]]s for [[biological wastewater treatment]].<br />
<br />
===Industrial processes=== <br />
<br />
Many industrial processes considered for a Mars settlement, in particular the production of [[methanol]] and [[methane]], require hydrogen gas. This can be obtained by [[electrolysis]], with oxygen gas as a byproduct.<br />
<br />
Most other processes require the use of significant quantities of water as a [[solvent]] for reagents such as [[acid]]s or [[ammonia]]. <br />
<br />
==Open issues==<br />
*What is known about the isotope ratio of Martian water?<br />
*Is the higher deuterium portion a health risk?<br />
*How will the excess deuterium be filtered out?<br />
<br />
==External Links== <br />
<br />
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water Wikipedia page on water] <br />
*[http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/express/mission/sc_science_marsis02.html Searching for water with the Mars Express MARSIS instrument.] <br />
<br />
===References=== <br />
<references/> <br />
<br />
[[category:Climate]] <br />
[[category:Chemistry]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Water&diff=4215Water2008-12-19T06:12:04Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* Glaciers */</p>
<hr />
<div>'''Water''' is a chemical compound consisting of a single [[oxygen]] atom bonded to two [[hydrogen]] atoms (''chemical symbols:'' H<sub>2</sub>O). Clean water is essential to almost all known forms of life, and its unique properties make it invaluable for most industrial processes. Although water in the liquid phase is abundant on Earth, its scarcity on Mars make it into a critical resource to be treasured. <br />
<br />
==Evidence for water on Mars== <br />
<br />
Starting in 2004, the evidence of the presence of water on Mars has been mounting. The [[Opportunity]] rover discovered geological markers - stratification and cross-bedding - near its landing site which pointed to significant flows of water at some time in Mars' history. Around the same time the [[Mars Express]] orbiter detected the spectral evidence of water present in the polar regions. In 2005, Mars Express confirmed this by locating an area of solid water ice near the north pole. The [[Phoenix]] lander confirmed the existence of water ice in Mars.<br />
<br />
===Measuring the abundance of water ice=== <br />
[[Image:MARSIS.jpg|thumb|200px|right|A MARSIS map of Mars' south pole ice deposits.]] <br />
On March 15, 2007, [[Mars Express]]' mission control released more news of extensive frozen water discovered at the Martian [[south pole]]. These new and highly accurate measurements predict that if the ice were to be melted, the whole planet would be covered in a liquid layer 11 meters deep. Although it has been known for many years that the poles have an abundance of ice, it has never been measured to this degree of accuracy. The data comes from the Mars Advanced Radar for Subsurface and Ionospheric Sounding (MARSIS) currently mapping the north pole to gain a better understanding of how much frozen water may be contained there. MARSIS can probe over 2 miles below the Martian surface and has found extensive layered deposits of ice. <br />
<br />
Mars shows evidence of extensive liquid water flowing on its surface in the past and it is the focus of many Mars missions to find out how this water has leaked away over the millennia. Martian polar ice may be the culprit, suggesting Mars may once have had a warmer climate, slowly cooling as the atmosphere became a more inefficient insulator for the meager heating from the distant Sun. <br />
<br />
===Evidence for liquid water?=== <br />
<br />
Future manned exploration on Mars will require a source of water whether it is in the form of ice or sub-surface [[aquifers]]. The [[Mars Express]] orbiter has uncovered some confusing measurements suggesting there may be liquid water accompanying all that ice. MARSIS bounced back data suggesting at least 90% of the layered deposits under the polar cap are indeed supplies of ice, but a thin layer resembling liquid water is also evident. It is hard to understand the existence of liquid water at the extremely low temperatures predicted. Perhaps high pressures or small geological processes may explain these observations. Another orbiter, NASA's Mars Global Surveyor, has also returned some exciting new evidence for the existence of new flows of liquid water on the Martian surface away from the frozen poles. {{science question|What pressures are required to keep water in a liquid phase at temperatures as low as that on the surface of Mars? - [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]]}} <br />
<br />
The [[Mars Global Surveyor]] arrived at the Red Planet on September 11, 1997 and returned a decade of data on the evolution of the planet before it was lost in November 2006 through energy loss. It was Mars' longest operational artificial satellite. The Mars Orbiter Camera (MOC) onboard revealed new deposits possibly carried as sediment by flowing water in two locations in the past 7 years (press release dated December 6, 2006)<ref>[http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/newsroom/20061206a.html NASA Press Release: ''NASA Images Suggest Water Still Flows in Brief Spurts on Mars'']</ref>. In images taken in August 1999 and September 2006 of the same location ([[Centauri Montes]] Region), a bright deposit measuring several hundred meters long is evident in the 2006 image but not in the 1999 image. A similar feature was observed at a different location from 2001 to 2005 at [[Terra Sirenum]]. It is worth noting that both locations are in equatorial regions, not usually associated with ice or liquid water. This suggests liquid water remains a characteristic of the Mars landscape, if only sporadically. These discoveries have increased the enthusiasm for the search for [[microbes|microbial life]], but the implications for manned exploration are huge. If there are pockets of liquid water just below the surface, Mars may yet be able to provide our future pioneers with natural springs more familiar on Earth. <br />
[[Image:Water_deposit.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Evidence from the [[Mars Global Surveyor]] MOC instrument that spurts of liquid water may sporadically flow on the Martian surface]] <br />
However, surface water on Mars is short-lived. The Martian atmosphere is very thin (a pressure of 7 millibars, <1% that of Earth's thick atmosphere) and cold (an average global temperature of -55°C or -67F), these two factors deny any long-term existence of liquid water. Surface liquid water will quickly freeze and [[sublimation|sublime]] into the atmosphere, bypassing the [[triple point|liquid phase]]. The phase transition for H<sub>2</sub>O on the surface of Mars occurs below the "[[triple point]]" on the phase diagram so the recent observations of sediment on the surface will have been deposited very quickly by short lived "spurts" of water. Just how short-lived these spurts of water are it is unknown, but a significant volume must have created a formidable river to carry sediment several hundred meters. <br />
<br />
Although there may be other explanations for these long "channels" of sediment, such as rock slides or wind-blown [[sand]] features, the appearance of the deposits seem very water-like. Michael Malin of Malin Space Science Systems, a mission scientist for the MOC says, "''The shapes of these deposits are what you would expect to see if the material were carried by flowing water... they have finger-like branches at the downhill end and easily diverted around small obstacles''".<ref>[http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/newsroom/20061206a.html NASA Press Release: ''NASA Images Suggest Water Still Flows in Brief Spurts on Mars'']</ref><br />
<br />
===Mineral alterations by ancient water flows=== <br />
<br />
Further support for the existence of flowing water comes from the first observations made by NASA's [[Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter]] (launched in 2005) where the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera spotted small fractures and cracks in the Martian canyon, [[Candor Chasma]]. The cracks analyzed show signs of mineral alteration in the rock exposed - a sign that liquid water once flowed through these sub-surface pipes. <br />
<br />
:"''What caught my eye was the bleaching or lack of dark material along the fracture. That is a sign of mineral alteration by fluids that moved through those joints. It reminded me of something I had seen during field studies in Utah, that is light-tone zones, or 'haloes,' on either side of cracks through darker sandstone''" - Dr. Chris Okubo, a geologist at the University of Arizona, Tucson. <br />
<br />
Although this is a sign that the liquid water has since disappeared from these cracks and fractures in the canyon rock, it is interesting to find evidence for ancient water in abundance. <br />
<br />
===Other discoveries=== <br />
*The 1996 [[Mars Pathfinder]] mission discovered plentiful evidence that its landing site, [[Ares Vallis]], was once the bottom of a huge valley system eroded by ancient water.<br />
<br />
==More sources of water==<br />
<br />
===Atmosphere===<br />
The Martian [[atmosphere]] contains a small percentage of water. With liquefaction technology the production of water should be able all over the planet's surface. An [[experimental setup#water out of the atmosphere|experimental setup]] is necessary to find out all about the viability of this approach.<br />
<br />
===Caves===<br />
Since the discovery of [[caves]] scientists believe in the possibility of water ice on the ground of the caves. Water ice is abundant under the ground atleast near the poles, and probably elsewhere too.<br />
<br />
===Glaciers===<br />
The [[Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter]] has found evidence of [[glacier|glaciers]] covered in regolith.<ref>http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2008/nov/HQ_08-304_MRO_BuriedGlaciers.html</ref> Radar refelction data indicates that these are not Rock Glaciers that have been previously suspected on Mars, but instead are thick glacial ice covered in a thin layer of debris. The buried glaciers lie in the Hellas Basin region of Mars' southern hemisphere with similar aprons detected extending from cliffs in the northern hemisphere.<br />
<br />
==Usage==<br />
<br />
===Drinking water===<br />
The [[human]] metabolism requires regularly the intake of fresh water. Since water is rare on Mars the [[recycling]] of all excretion is a must. There are two ways: Wastewater can be [[technical wastewater treatment|treated with technical means]], which is partially done on the [[ISS]] already. Alternatively, the water can be kept in a nearly natural cycle, using parts of the [[greenhouse]]s for [[biological wastewater treatment]].<br />
<br />
===Industrial processes=== <br />
<br />
Many industrial processes considered for a Mars settlement, in particular the production of [[methanol]] and [[methane]], require hydrogen gas. This can be obtained by [[electrolysis]], with oxygen gas as a byproduct.<br />
<br />
Most other processes require the use of significant quantities of water as a [[solvent]] for reagents such as [[acid]]s or [[ammonia]]. <br />
<br />
==Open issues==<br />
*What is known about the isotope ratio of Martian water?<br />
*Is the higher deuterium portion a health risk?<br />
*How will the excess deuterium be filtered out?<br />
<br />
==External Links== <br />
<br />
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water Wikipedia page on water] <br />
*[http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/express/mission/sc_science_marsis02.html Searching for water with the Mars Express MARSIS instrument.] <br />
<br />
===References=== <br />
<references/> <br />
<br />
[[category:Climate]] <br />
[[category:Chemistry]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Needed_Articles&diff=4203Needed Articles2008-12-17T02:45:29Z<p>Jarogers2001: Reverted edits by 170.35.208.23 (Talk); changed back to last version by Rfc</p>
<hr />
<div>This is the global collection of lists of articles that are needed by [[Marspedia]] and shall be a guide for authors, who want to start new articles without knowing which direction to go.<br />
<br />
If you feel there is a list missing then please create it! Try to avoid creating empty lists - and keep the [[Marspedia:About#Marspedia_Policies|Marspedia policies]] in mind. You can create a missing list or work on an existing list. Both this list and the listed lists are maintained manually. <br />
<br />
Eventually, most of the links here should go from missing to existing, meaning this framework's goal will have been achieved.<br />
<br />
Please do not hesitate to update everything and bring in your ideas.<br />
<br />
<strong>To use this list:</strong><br />
* To add more types of articles, insert the names of one or more desired lists on this page. Be sure to use <nowiki>"[[" and "]]"</nowiki> to make it a link<br />
* Click on missing list links to open an editor window to supply a missing list.<br />
** Insert applicable article names into the new list, also with <nowiki>"[[" and "]]"</nowiki> each.<br />
** The new list should contain the line <nowiki>{{Bootstrap}}</nowiki> at the top.<br />
<br />
<br />
=='''A'''==<br />
[[List of Academia]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Agricultural Products]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Agricultural Technologies]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Analog Station Efforts]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Analog Station Designs]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Architectural Concepts]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Areas of Research]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Areological Articles]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Arts and Crafts]]<BR/><br />
<br />
=='''B'''==<br />
[[List of Biosphere Technologies]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Books]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Boosters]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Business Models]]<BR/><br />
<br />
=='''C'''==<br />
[[List of Construction Materials]]<BR/><br />
<br />
=='''E'''==<br />
[[List of Export Markets]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Exports]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Electrical Considerations]]<BR/><br />
<br />
=='''H'''==<br />
[[List of Habitat Concepts]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Health and Fitness]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Historical Articles]]<BR/><br />
<br />
=='''I'''==<br />
[[List of Import Markets]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Imports]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Industrialization Articles]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Infrastructure Considerations]]<BR/><br />
[[List of ISRU|List of In-situ Resource Utilization Methods]]<BR/><br />
<br />
=='''L'''==<br />
[[List of Logistical Considerations]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Mars Based Sciences]]<BR/><br />
<br />
=='''M'''==<br />
[[List of Major Settlement Challenges]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Maps]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Mission Designs and Options]] -- not presently existing reference missions to design<BR/><br />
[[List of Modules]]<BR/><br />
<br />
=='''O'''==<br />
[[List of Online Resources]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Outpost Activities]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Outpost Concepts]]<BR/><br />
<br />
=='''P'''==<br />
[[List of People]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Planned Missions]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Propulsion Systems]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Medical Risks]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Publications]]<BR/><br />
<br />
=='''R'''==<br />
[[List of Recreation]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Resource Development Articles]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Resources]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Robotic Missions]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Robots]] <BR/><br />
<br />
=='''S'''==<br />
[[List of Settlement Business Ideas]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Settlement Locations]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Shielding Options]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Site Management Issues]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Space Facilities]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Space Station and Module Companies]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Standards]]<BR/><br />
<br />
=='''T'''==<br />
[[List of Terraforming Issues]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Time Issues]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Transportation Systems]]<BR/><br />
<br />
=='''U'''==<br />
[[List of Unmanned Sites]]<BR/><br />
[[List of Urban Planning]]<BR/><br />
<br />
[[Category:Bootstrap lists]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Minerals&diff=4104Talk:Minerals2008-12-02T23:12:41Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
<hr />
<div>To get the iron from hematite it is usually smelted with carbon. The iron-oxygen bond is strong in hematite so a stronger bond must be presented to remove the oxygen. The trick is to mix the ore with powdered coke, then smelt them while keeping the oxygen infusion low enough that you have a 1 to 1 mol ratio of carbon and oxygen. This produces CO, which then strips an additional oxygen atom from any iron ores present. The result is CO<sub>2</sub> and reduced ore. Continue reducing until you have iron and CO<sub>2</sub>. It's the tried and true method of ancient iron production. Nowadays we call it fancy names like "carbothermal reduction." - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 00:55, 19 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
:A [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomery bloomery] is about as low tech as you can get. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 01:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Where would one get coke on Mars? [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 07:54, 19 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
:From the atmosphere? I really have no idea for carbon black (coke substitute). If it were me, I would skip the carbon/coke step entirely and go straight to CO. This can can be accomplished by burning methane in an oxygen starved environment. Methane can be obtained from the martian atmosphere via a sebatier reaction. It is much less low tech, but you'd have to use high tech to get back to low tech anyways so I see little point unless coke/carbon can be obtained as a byproduct of some other activity. It would be easier to just circulate heated CO/CO<sub>2</sub> upwards through a column while poring ore into the top (as in a blast furnace), but you'll need a lot of power for that. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 07:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Doesn't CO2 partially decompose to CO at high temperatures? [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 22:09, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:For that, we need a chemist. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 23:12, 2 December 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Algae&diff=4103Talk:Algae2008-12-02T23:11:19Z<p>Jarogers2001: New page: If I remember correctly: small algae are also rich in oils and can provide a source of fatty acids like Omega 3. - ~~~~</p>
<hr />
<div>If I remember correctly: small algae are also rich in oils and can provide a source of fatty acids like Omega 3. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 23:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Fish&diff=4102Fish2008-12-02T23:07:59Z<p>Jarogers2001: /* Open Issues */</p>
<hr />
<div>'''Fish''' are a potential source of [[entertainment]] and [[food]] for martian colonists. Species such as tilapia and catfish are relatively low maintenance, and can be fed a wide range of foods, including biological waste. Fish kept in pools or aquariums in public areas can provide entertainment for colonists when other species of [[pets]] may not be practical. Fish are a good source of [[protein]] and other [[nutrients]].<br />
<br />
===See Also===<br />
* [[Aquaculture]]<br />
* [[Food]]<br />
<br />
===Open Issues===<br />
How efficiently do fish convert the feed to protein? How can waste be effectively recycled?<br />
{{stub}}<br />
[[category:agriculture]]<br />
[[category:animals]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Oxygen&diff=4101Oxygen2008-12-02T23:06:42Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{element<br />
|float=right<br />
|elementName=Oxygen<br />
|elementSymbol=O<br />
|protons=8<br />
|abundance=0.13% ([[atmosphere]])<br />
}}<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Oxygen''' (''periodic table symbol:'' O<sup>8</sup>) is a chemical element that can be found in the [[atmosphere]] and in several [[minerals]] on [[Mars]].<br />
<br />
==Relevance for life==<br />
The metabolism of [[human|human beings]], [[:category:animals|animals]] and various [[microbes]] depends on oxygen. The atmosphere of Mars contains only 0.2 % oxygen, which is not enough to support animal or human life.<br />
<br />
==Production==<br />
Oxygen can be produced<br />
* in [[greenhouse]]s by plants.<br />
* by reduction of [[carbon dioxide]] from the martian atmosphere<br />
* by reduction of oxide minerals<br />
* by [[electrolysis]] of [[water]]<br />
<br />
==Related Articles==<br />
<br />
[[lunarp:Oxygen|Oxygen<sup><b>lunarp</b></sup>]] on Lunarpedia.<br />
<br />
[[Category: Biospherics]]<br />
[[Category: Greenhouse]]<br />
[[Category: Chemistry]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Minerals&diff=3986Talk:Minerals2008-11-24T07:00:52Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
<hr />
<div>To get the iron from hematite it is usually smelted with carbon. The iron-oxygen bond is strong in hematite so a stronger bond must be presented to remove the oxygen. The trick is to mix the ore with powdered coke, then smelt them while keeping the oxygen infusion low enough that you have a 1 to 1 mol ratio of carbon and oxygen. This produces CO, which then strips an additional oxygen atom from any iron ores present. The result is CO<sub>2</sub> and reduced ore. Continue reducing until you have iron and CO<sub>2</sub>. It's the tried and true method of ancient iron production. Nowadays we call it fancy names like "carbothermal reduction." - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 00:55, 19 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
:A [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomery bloomery] is about as low tech as you can get. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 01:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Where would one get coke on Mars? [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 07:54, 19 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
:From the atmosphere? I really have no idea for carbon black (coke substitute). If it were me, I would skip the carbon/coke step entirely and go straight to CO. This can can be accomplished by burning methane in an oxygen starved environment. Methane can be obtained from the martian atmosphere via a sebatier reaction. It is much less low tech, but you'd have to use high tech to get back to low tech anyways so I see little point unless coke/carbon can be obtained as a byproduct of some other activity. It would be easier to just circulate heated CO/CO<sub>2</sub> upwards through a column while poring ore into the top (as in a blast furnace), but you'll need a lot of power for that. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 07:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Minerals&diff=3984Talk:Minerals2008-11-19T01:16:04Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
<hr />
<div>To get the iron from hematite it is usually smelted with carbon. The iron-oxygen bond is strong in hematite so a stronger bond must be presented to remove the oxygen. The trick is to mix the ore with powdered coke, then smelt them while keeping the oxygen infusion low enough that you have a 1 to 1 mol ratio of carbon and oxygen. This produces CO, which then strips an additional oxygen atom from any iron ores present. The result is CO<sub>2</sub> and reduced ore. Continue reducing until you have iron and CO<sub>2</sub>. It's the tried and true method of ancient iron production. Nowadays we call it fancy names like "carbothermal reduction." - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 00:55, 19 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
:A [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomery bloomery] is about as low tech as you can get. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 01:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Minerals&diff=3983Talk:Minerals2008-11-19T00:55:57Z<p>Jarogers2001: New page: To get the iron from hematite it is usually smelted with carbon. The iron-oxygen bond is strong in hematite so a stronger bond must be presented to remove the oxygen. The trick is to mix...</p>
<hr />
<div>To get the iron from hematite it is usually smelted with carbon. The iron-oxygen bond is strong in hematite so a stronger bond must be presented to remove the oxygen. The trick is to mix the ore with powdered coke, then smelt them while keeping the oxygen infusion low enough that you have a 1 to 1 mol ratio of carbon and oxygen. This produces CO, which then strips an additional oxygen atom from any iron ores present. The result is CO<sub>2</sub> and reduced ore. Continue reducing until you have iron and CO<sub>2</sub>. It's the tried and true method of ancient iron production. Nowadays we call it fancy names like "carbothermal reduction." - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 00:55, 19 November 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=MAVEN&diff=3936MAVEN2008-11-05T13:23:10Z<p>Jarogers2001: Maven moved to MAVEN: Case Sensitivity in article names.</p>
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<div>'''MAVEN''' stands for Mars Atmosphere and Volatile EvolutioN. It is a planned [[orbiter]] that will study the evolution of the martian [[atmosphere]]. [[Image:Maven spacecraft.jpg|thumb|right|px|The Maven orbiter]] It is planned for launch in 2013. <br />
{{stub}}<br />
[[category:Orbiters]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Maven&diff=3937Maven2008-11-05T13:23:10Z<p>Jarogers2001: Maven moved to MAVEN: Case Sensitivity in article names.</p>
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<div>#REDIRECT [[MAVEN]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Population&diff=3891Talk:Population2008-10-28T21:31:41Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
<hr />
<div>Open Issue:<br />
Wikipedia gives 500 - 1000 individuals to be a minimaly viable population: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_population Minimum viable population]<br />
:I was under the impression that a minimally viable gene-pool consists of 40 unrelated individuals - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 01:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
::The number may depend on wether the colonists are preselected to exclude known genetic diseases and disorders. Frozen embryos could be sent with the colonists to provide added genetic diversity without the extra space (aside from refrigeration/support - still a lot less than the equivalent number of full grown humans). Aside form the outstanding moral/ethical stickiness, people may be willing to donate "extra" embryos from fertility treatments, or donate them outright. --[[User:Laertes|Laertes]] 01:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I thought a minimally viable population was around 100. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 07:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I went ahead and asked an expert. This is what I found out: There is no definite minimum viable population, just a survivability curve based upon the number of individuals of a species spread out over an arbitrary geographic area. The larger the area and higher the population, the higher the statistical probability of survival. Genetic diversity also affects the curve. Thinking the other way: viability decreases as geographic spread, genetic diversity, and population decrease. Geographic spread will avoid taxing the local (in this case Artificial) environment and will ensure survival should something happen to one or more habs/settlements. Instead of bringing embryos, I suggest sperm as it is easier to implant and stores can be diluted (unless we develop some form of artificial womb). - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 06:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::Cryopreservation of fertilized eggs and (microscopic) embryos is common practice in human reproduction medicine. In Germany the cryopreservation of embryos is prohibited by law, but cryopreservation of fertilized eggs is done in a nearly industrial scale. The effort for storage of cryopreserved sperm and cryopreserved embryos is the same. Combined with the implantation of sperm, the implantation of such an embryo is done by a very similar process: The embryo is lifted by a pipette off the petri dish, and then it is inserted into a woman's womb. All in all, this is state of the art. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 10:46, 26 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::Note that sperm can be implanted with something as simple as a turkey baster and tube, and does not require hormone treatments before implantation. It's a quick, low-tech solution that is common practice in livestock. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 21:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Once the embryo is implanted, it will do nothing but consume resources for the next plus-minus 10 years. In contrast to this, adult colonists can start working almost immadiatly upon arrival.<br />
What about implanting two embryos at a time? Would this be a good idea or am I talking nonsense? [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 07:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Implanting two or three embryos at a time is common practice, as well. Statistically, one out of 6 implantations are successful. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 19:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Population&diff=3870Talk:Population2008-10-26T06:32:25Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
<hr />
<div>Open Issue:<br />
Wikipedia gives 500 - 1000 individuals to be a minimaly viable population: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_population Minimum viable population]<br />
:I was under the impression that a minimally viable gene-pool consists of 40 unrelated individuals - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 01:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
::The number may depend on wether the colonists are preselected to exclude known genetic diseases and disorders. Frozen embryos could be sent with the colonists to provide added genetic diversity without the extra space (aside from refrigeration/support - still a lot less than the equivalent number of full grown humans). Aside form the outstanding moral/ethical stickiness, people may be willing to donate "extra" embryos from fertility treatments, or donate them outright. --[[User:Laertes|Laertes]] 01:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I thought a minimally viable population was around 100. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 07:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I went ahead and asked an expert. This is what I found out: There is no definite minimum viable population, just a survivability curve based upon the number of individuals of a species spread out over an arbitrary geographic area. The larger the area and higher the population, the higher the statistical probability of survival. Genetic diversity also affects the curve. Thinking the other way: viability decreases as geographic spread, genetic diversity, and population decrease. Geographic spread will avoid taxing the local (in this case Artificial) environment and will ensure survival should something happen to one or more habs/settlements. Instead of bringing embryos, I suggest sperm as it is easier to implant and stores can be diluted (unless we develop some form of artificial womb). - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 06:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Population&diff=3837Talk:Population2008-10-21T01:07:19Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
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<div>Open Issue:<br />
Wikipedia gives 500 - 1000 individuals to be a minimaly viable population: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_population Minimum viable population]<br />
:I was under the impression that a minimally viable gene-pool consists of 40 unrelated individuals - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 01:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Farred&diff=3812User talk:Farred2008-10-17T22:46:54Z<p>Jarogers2001: New page: Welcome to the flip side. :D - ~~~~</p>
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<div>Welcome to the flip side. :D - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 22:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Laertes&diff=3781User talk:Laertes2008-10-14T06:38:10Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
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<div>Hi Laertes! Welcome to Marspedia! My name is Ian O'Neill, one of the admins here and I'm available most of the time if you need any assistance. We're hoping for a big 2008 for lots of new additions to the Marspedia wiki, so it's great to have you on board. Hopefully see you soon -- [[User:Ioneill|Ioneill]] 06:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
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Hi, you are doing a great job here:-) My English is not so good, and I really appreciate every enhancement. Don't worry about lack in space experience. Nobody went to Mars so far, and hence nobody knows how to do it. There are many challenges that are completely new, and every contribution is welcome. Enjoy! -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 10:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
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Welcome back! - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 06:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Mining&diff=3751Talk:Mining2008-10-11T08:12:48Z<p>Jarogers2001: </p>
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<div>Which mining process, open pit or underground would be prefferred? What useful elements could be found in the rocks that are strewn on the martian plains? [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 12:58, 1 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
:These are good questions. I can't answer them right now. We should start collecting the appropriate data from the rovers and make them available in Marspedia systematically. Then we shall be able to answer those high level questions. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 19:54, 1 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
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But the NASA rovers were designed to look out for evidence of water, hardly the kind of exploration needed to prospect for the mines. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 07:17, 2 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Yes and no. Ore deposits such as gold, silver, copper sulfides, and a variety of non-metallic mineral concentrations result from the precipitation of ions from water. The water may be ground water moving down, resulting in calcite (CaCO<sub>3</sub>), dolomite (CaMgCO<sub>3</sub>) and other deposits like bauxite (aluminum ore). The water may also be migrating up and out from intrusive igneous deposits, moving through rock fractures and bedding planes and depositing useful mineral concentrations in veins as it cools. Water that runs down from surrounding surface terrain and then evaporates may result in concentrations (Salt Flats) of the chemical precipitates Halite (NaCl) and Silvite (KCl). Water will also serve to move samples of minerals from one location to another (such as gold in a river bed) meaning that the samples found in present or ancient river beds can be traced up stream to their parent formations. While water itself might not be of much value as far as mining is concerned, the geologic processes that result from watery environments can provide extremenly valuable concentrations of useful materials. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 08:12, 11 October 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Air&diff=3714Air2008-09-20T08:09:36Z<p>Jarogers2001: Protected "Air" [edit=autoconfirmed:move=autoconfirmed]</p>
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<div>Settlers on [[Mars]] depend on artificial '''air''' for breathing, since the [[atmosphere]] is too thin and poisonous.<br />
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==Low pressure effects==<br />
The [[human]] breathing works best at [[Earth|terrestrial]] sealevel with an air pressure of 1013 Hektopascal (hPa). The air pressure on the Mount Everest is only 340 hPa.<br />
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In such high altitudes of the terrestrial atmosphere the air pressure drops to dangerous values, resulting in acute mountain sickness (AMS) and high altitude pulmonary edema (HAPE).<br />
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==Oxygen reduction for fire prevention==<br />
The terrestrial atmosphere contains 21% [[oxygen]], which is the value that human beings have adapted to during a long evolution process. But there is some tolerance. Under normal air pressure persons can live and work with down to 13% oxygen. The danger of [[fire]] is much lower in a low oxygen air. With 15% oxygen even paper can no longer burn with a flame. <ref>[http://www.nutrition.org.uk/home.asp?siteId=43&sectionId=422&parentSection=322&which=undefined www.baulinks.de]</ref><br />
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==Open Issues==<br />
*What air pressure, combined with different oxygen levels, is required for persons to survive?<br />
*What air pressure, combined with different oxygen levels, is required for persons to live and work?<br />
*What are the results from the [[Biosphere 2]] experiment? Ideas for mitigation and/or compensation?<br />
*What is known about the behaviour of dusty air under low [[gravity]]?<br />
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==References==<br />
<references/><br />
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[[Category:Health]]</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Water&diff=3713Talk:Water2008-09-20T08:06:16Z<p>Jarogers2001: Protected "Talk:Water" [edit=autoconfirmed:move=autoconfirmed]</p>
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<div>The article claims that water is a scarce resource on Mars, but I though that it was relativly abundant<br />
(relative to the moon, mercury, etc.)? Also, an early autonomous colony won't use much water, in the grand scheme of things, and most water will be recycled. Other then that, martian water has a higher amount of deutarium, which is unsuitable for life. How will the excess deutarium be filtered out. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 07:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Hi T.Neo, compared to the moon, mercury, etc. water is abundant indeed. I think the article only compares with Earth, and only the liquid phase. Nonetheless, you should add a comparission with other cosmic bodies.<br />
:I did not know about the high deuterium portion. You may add a paragraph "Open issues" to pose the problem of filtering. I introduced such paragraphs in many other articles. Hopefully, somebody else can answer these questions, or somebody can do the research to find the answers. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 07:07, 20 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
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I dont know how deutarium would be filtered out. I dont really know much about filtering isotopes, but deutarium-containing water is heavier then ordinary water (hence the name "heavy water"), I suppose it could be seperated with a centrifuge. (Maybe, I dunno.)[[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 12:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I inserted the "Open issues" section. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 12:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==vandalism==<br />
this page should be protected, there is constant vandalism. [[User:Nawi|Nawi]] 19:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Water&diff=3712Talk:Water2008-09-20T08:05:55Z<p>Jarogers2001: Reverted edits by 60.191.246.25 (Talk); changed back to last version by Nawi</p>
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<div>The article claims that water is a scarce resource on Mars, but I though that it was relativly abundant<br />
(relative to the moon, mercury, etc.)? Also, an early autonomous colony won't use much water, in the grand scheme of things, and most water will be recycled. Other then that, martian water has a higher amount of deutarium, which is unsuitable for life. How will the excess deutarium be filtered out. [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 07:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Hi T.Neo, compared to the moon, mercury, etc. water is abundant indeed. I think the article only compares with Earth, and only the liquid phase. Nonetheless, you should add a comparission with other cosmic bodies.<br />
:I did not know about the high deuterium portion. You may add a paragraph "Open issues" to pose the problem of filtering. I introduced such paragraphs in many other articles. Hopefully, somebody else can answer these questions, or somebody can do the research to find the answers. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 07:07, 20 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
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I dont know how deutarium would be filtered out. I dont really know much about filtering isotopes, but deutarium-containing water is heavier then ordinary water (hence the name "heavy water"), I suppose it could be seperated with a centrifuge. (Maybe, I dunno.)[[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 12:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I inserted the "Open issues" section. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 12:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==vandalism==<br />
this page should be protected, there is constant vandalism. [[User:Nawi|Nawi]] 19:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)</div>Jarogers2001