http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Equipment_for_autonomous_growth&feed=atom&action=historyTalk:Equipment for autonomous growth - Revision history2024-03-29T15:29:40ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.34.2http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Equipment_for_autonomous_growth&diff=8524&oldid=prevRfc: /* Dealing with the threat of economic problems */2013-03-16T19:43:41Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Dealing with the threat of economic problems</span></span></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 19:43, 16 March 2013</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l133" >Line 133:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 133:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:You are perfectly right. The replenishment missions from Earth may stop at any moment. Personally, I would only go to Mars if the necessary technology for self-sufficiency is shipped first. This may be at a very low level. I am not interested in much comfort, so I can abstain from fully automatic cleaning robots for example. Self-sufficiency should be possible without much technology, but the least necessary technology for this should be available right from the beginning. I believe that a viable self-sufficient economy on Mars would be some rural kind of manufacturing, which minimizes the amount of necessary deliveries from Earth. Manual work will allow to grow plants in the greenhouses, make new building and maintain the power generating parts. However, some technology for plastics and iron production is a must for a colony that wants to grow. Plastics is probably the easiest material to produce, because with the help of electrical energy you can make plastics from substances of the Martian atmosphere (CO2 and H2O). A small stationary machine should be able to do that. --[[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 13:47, 9 March 2013 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:You are perfectly right. The replenishment missions from Earth may stop at any moment. Personally, I would only go to Mars if the necessary technology for self-sufficiency is shipped first. This may be at a very low level. I am not interested in much comfort, so I can abstain from fully automatic cleaning robots for example. Self-sufficiency should be possible without much technology, but the least necessary technology for this should be available right from the beginning. I believe that a viable self-sufficient economy on Mars would be some rural kind of manufacturing, which minimizes the amount of necessary deliveries from Earth. Manual work will allow to grow plants in the greenhouses, make new building and maintain the power generating parts. However, some technology for plastics and iron production is a must for a colony that wants to grow. Plastics is probably the easiest material to produce, because with the help of electrical energy you can make plastics from substances of the Martian atmosphere (CO2 and H2O). A small stationary machine should be able to do that. --[[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 13:47, 9 March 2013 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::We know that in concept the life support system for Mars is possible such that all consumed material and energy come from Mars. However, the difficulty is in the details. A similar sort of life support system was Biosphere 2. That did not perform as the operators hoped. People can test a life support system suitable for Mars on Earth. The tests can be used to make refinements in the design. Such a test of life support for Mars has not been done yet. Evaluating such test results is the means that I would recommend for deciding if a proposed life support system for Mars is actually suitable and should be sent to Mars to support settlers. That together with the industrial infrastructure for maintaining and expanding a colony is quite a package. Whoever goes to Mars should make sure of the self-sufficiency package before leaving Earth. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 02:20, 16 March 2013 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::We know that in concept the life support system for Mars is possible such that all consumed material and energy come from Mars. However, the difficulty is in the details. A similar sort of life support system was Biosphere 2. That did not perform as the operators hoped. People can test a life support system suitable for Mars on Earth. The tests can be used to make refinements in the design. Such a test of life support for Mars has not been done yet. Evaluating such test results is the means that I would recommend for deciding if a proposed life support system for Mars is actually suitable and should be sent to Mars to support settlers. That together with the industrial infrastructure for maintaining and expanding a colony is quite a package. Whoever goes to Mars should make sure of the self-sufficiency package before leaving Earth. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 02:20, 16 March 2013 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:"... before leaving Earth.", yes, exactly, I would only leave Earth under this condition. The life support system is not what I worry about, if it followed the Biosphere 2 idea. As far as I know, the Biosphere 2 did not fail in general. It failed only in proving that you can build a biosphere with 100% self-stabilizing properties on such a small scale. Still, it worked long enough to prove that you can build a biological recycling system to feed the persons unlimited if you add some tiny amount of oxygen and remove some tiny amount of nitrous oxide, which is easy enough with cheep and simple technology. --[[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 19:43, 16 March 2013 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Rfchttp://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Equipment_for_autonomous_growth&diff=8522&oldid=prevFarred: /* Dealing with the threat of economic problems */ talk2013-03-16T02:20:28Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Dealing with the threat of economic problems: </span> talk</span></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 02:20, 16 March 2013</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l132" >Line 132:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 132:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I have written above: "The chief villains seem to be the United States federal government which keeps borrowing money that it will never repay and the various nations that continue to allow the trade of dubious securities for goods. The unstable situation has the potential to collapse like an avalanche without warning." This cannot be quite true because there have been countless warnings of this problem. To be accurate I should have written that collapse could occur without warning of the exact day or year of the collapse. We know that the disaster could occur. We just do not know when. The United States could lessen one tendency toward collapse by stopping its deficit spending and making at least token payments upon the debt. However, the situation is so far out of hand now that the economic strain from reduced economic activity could trigger the collapse. That is a low likelihood event. It is best to fix things now rather than later because the risk collapse only gets worse as the debt continues to grow without any sign of repayment. Even if the deficit spending problem is fixed there are other potential causes for disruption of the world economy. The U.S. defaulting on its debt is just the worst one I can imagine. No matter when a colony is started, there will be the potential for the discontinuation of economic support from Earth in an unplanned fashion. We must simply make the best bet that we can and have a program that can be brought to economic self sufficiency in a reasonably short number of years. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 03:17, 8 March 2013 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I have written above: "The chief villains seem to be the United States federal government which keeps borrowing money that it will never repay and the various nations that continue to allow the trade of dubious securities for goods. The unstable situation has the potential to collapse like an avalanche without warning." This cannot be quite true because there have been countless warnings of this problem. To be accurate I should have written that collapse could occur without warning of the exact day or year of the collapse. We know that the disaster could occur. We just do not know when. The United States could lessen one tendency toward collapse by stopping its deficit spending and making at least token payments upon the debt. However, the situation is so far out of hand now that the economic strain from reduced economic activity could trigger the collapse. That is a low likelihood event. It is best to fix things now rather than later because the risk collapse only gets worse as the debt continues to grow without any sign of repayment. Even if the deficit spending problem is fixed there are other potential causes for disruption of the world economy. The U.S. defaulting on its debt is just the worst one I can imagine. No matter when a colony is started, there will be the potential for the discontinuation of economic support from Earth in an unplanned fashion. We must simply make the best bet that we can and have a program that can be brought to economic self sufficiency in a reasonably short number of years. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 03:17, 8 March 2013 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:You are perfectly right. The replenishment missions from Earth may stop at any moment. Personally, I would only go to Mars if the necessary technology for self-sufficiency is shipped first. This may be at a very low level. I am not interested in much comfort, so I can abstain from fully automatic cleaning robots for example. Self-sufficiency should be possible without much technology, but the least necessary technology for this should be available right from the beginning. I believe that a viable self-sufficient economy on Mars would be some rural kind of manufacturing, which minimizes the amount of necessary deliveries from Earth. Manual work will allow to grow plants in the greenhouses, make new building and maintain the power generating parts. However, some technology for plastics and iron production is a must for a colony that wants to grow. Plastics is probably the easiest material to produce, because with the help of electrical energy you can make plastics from substances of the Martian atmosphere (CO2 and H2O). A small stationary machine should be able to do that. --[[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 13:47, 9 March 2013 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:You are perfectly right. The replenishment missions from Earth may stop at any moment. Personally, I would only go to Mars if the necessary technology for self-sufficiency is shipped first. This may be at a very low level. I am not interested in much comfort, so I can abstain from fully automatic cleaning robots for example. Self-sufficiency should be possible without much technology, but the least necessary technology for this should be available right from the beginning. I believe that a viable self-sufficient economy on Mars would be some rural kind of manufacturing, which minimizes the amount of necessary deliveries from Earth. Manual work will allow to grow plants in the greenhouses, make new building and maintain the power generating parts. However, some technology for plastics and iron production is a must for a colony that wants to grow. Plastics is probably the easiest material to produce, because with the help of electrical energy you can make plastics from substances of the Martian atmosphere (CO2 and H2O). A small stationary machine should be able to do that. --[[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 13:47, 9 March 2013 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::We know that in concept the life support system for Mars is possible such that all consumed material and energy come from Mars. However, the difficulty is in the details. A similar sort of life support system was Biosphere 2. That did not perform as the operators hoped. People can test a life support system suitable for Mars on Earth. The tests can be used to make refinements in the design. Such a test of life support for Mars has not been done yet. Evaluating such test results is the means that I would recommend for deciding if a proposed life support system for Mars is actually suitable and should be sent to Mars to support settlers. That together with the industrial infrastructure for maintaining and expanding a colony is quite a package. Whoever goes to Mars should make sure of the self-sufficiency package before leaving Earth. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 02:20, 16 March 2013 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key marspediaorg_www-mwmars_:diff::1.12:old-8482:rev-8522 -->
</table>Farredhttp://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Equipment_for_autonomous_growth&diff=8482&oldid=prevRfc: /* Dealing with the threat of economic problems */2013-03-09T13:47:57Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Dealing with the threat of economic problems</span></span></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 13:47, 9 March 2013</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l131" >Line 131:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 131:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Dealing with the threat of economic problems== </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Dealing with the threat of economic problems== </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I have written above: "The chief villains seem to be the United States federal government which keeps borrowing money that it will never repay and the various nations that continue to allow the trade of dubious securities for goods. The unstable situation has the potential to collapse like an avalanche without warning." This cannot be quite true because there have been countless warnings of this problem. To be accurate I should have written that collapse could occur without warning of the exact day or year of the collapse. We know that the disaster could occur. We just do not know when. The United States could lessen one tendency toward collapse by stopping its deficit spending and making at least token payments upon the debt. However, the situation is so far out of hand now that the economic strain from reduced economic activity could trigger the collapse. That is a low likelihood event. It is best to fix things now rather than later because the risk collapse only gets worse as the debt continues to grow without any sign of repayment. Even if the deficit spending problem is fixed there are other potential causes for disruption of the world economy. The U.S. defaulting on its debt is just the worst one I can imagine. No matter when a colony is started, there will be the potential for the discontinuation of economic support from Earth in an unplanned fashion. We must simply make the best bet that we can and have a program that can be brought to economic self sufficiency in a reasonably short number of years. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 03:17, 8 March 2013 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I have written above: "The chief villains seem to be the United States federal government which keeps borrowing money that it will never repay and the various nations that continue to allow the trade of dubious securities for goods. The unstable situation has the potential to collapse like an avalanche without warning." This cannot be quite true because there have been countless warnings of this problem. To be accurate I should have written that collapse could occur without warning of the exact day or year of the collapse. We know that the disaster could occur. We just do not know when. The United States could lessen one tendency toward collapse by stopping its deficit spending and making at least token payments upon the debt. However, the situation is so far out of hand now that the economic strain from reduced economic activity could trigger the collapse. That is a low likelihood event. It is best to fix things now rather than later because the risk collapse only gets worse as the debt continues to grow without any sign of repayment. Even if the deficit spending problem is fixed there are other potential causes for disruption of the world economy. The U.S. defaulting on its debt is just the worst one I can imagine. No matter when a colony is started, there will be the potential for the discontinuation of economic support from Earth in an unplanned fashion. We must simply make the best bet that we can and have a program that can be brought to economic self sufficiency in a reasonably short number of years. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 03:17, 8 March 2013 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:You are perfectly right. The replenishment missions from Earth may stop at any moment. Personally, I would only go to Mars if the necessary technology for self-sufficiency is shipped first. This may be at a very low level. I am not interested in much comfort, so I can abstain from fully automatic cleaning robots for example. Self-sufficiency should be possible without much technology, but the least necessary technology for this should be available right from the beginning. I believe that a viable self-sufficient economy on Mars would be some rural kind of manufacturing, which minimizes the amount of necessary deliveries from Earth. Manual work will allow to grow plants in the greenhouses, make new building and maintain the power generating parts. However, some technology for plastics and iron production is a must for a colony that wants to grow. Plastics is probably the easiest material to produce, because with the help of electrical energy you can make plastics from substances of the Martian atmosphere (CO2 and H2O). A small stationary machine should be able to do that. --[[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 13:47, 9 March 2013 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key marspediaorg_www-mwmars_:diff::1.12:old-8465:rev-8482 -->
</table>Rfchttp://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Equipment_for_autonomous_growth&diff=8465&oldid=prevFarred: Dealing with the threat of economic problems2013-03-08T03:17:18Z<p>Dealing with the threat of economic problems</p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 03:17, 8 March 2013</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l128" >Line 128:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 128:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Hello Farred, This discussion seems to focus on more than one subject. Proposal: Let's continue the nuclear discussion on [[Talk:Nuclear_power]], the Mars One discussion on [[Talk: Mars One]] and the discussion upon the general economic feasibility of autonomous growth here on this page. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:31, 12 January 2013 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Hello Farred, This discussion seems to focus on more than one subject. Proposal: Let's continue the nuclear discussion on [[Talk:Nuclear_power]], the Mars One discussion on [[Talk: Mars One]] and the discussion upon the general economic feasibility of autonomous growth here on this page. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:31, 12 January 2013 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">==Dealing with the threat of economic problems== </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I have written above: "The chief villains seem to be the United States federal government which keeps borrowing money that it will never repay and the various nations that continue to allow the trade of dubious securities for goods. The unstable situation has the potential to collapse like an avalanche without warning." This cannot be quite true because there have been countless warnings of this problem. To be accurate I should have written that collapse could occur without warning of the exact day or year of the collapse. We know that the disaster could occur. We just do not know when. The United States could lessen one tendency toward collapse by stopping its deficit spending and making at least token payments upon the debt. However, the situation is so far out of hand now that the economic strain from reduced economic activity could trigger the collapse. That is a low likelihood event. It is best to fix things now rather than later because the risk collapse only gets worse as the debt continues to grow without any sign of repayment. Even if the deficit spending problem is fixed there are other potential causes for disruption of the world economy. The U.S. defaulting on its debt is just the worst one I can imagine. No matter when a colony is started, there will be the potential for the discontinuation of economic support from Earth in an unplanned fashion. We must simply make the best bet that we can and have a program that can be brought to economic self sufficiency in a reasonably short number of years. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 03:17, 8 March 2013 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key marspediaorg_www-mwmars_:diff::1.12:old-7967:rev-8465 -->
</table>Farredhttp://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Equipment_for_autonomous_growth&diff=7967&oldid=prevRfc: Lets split up the discussion to the dedicated talk pages2013-01-12T20:31:29Z<p>Lets split up the discussion to the dedicated talk pages</p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 20:31, 12 January 2013</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l126" >Line 126:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 126:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::On the whole, the problem of Mars colonization is just to large for me to handle in a way to get a decision of practical or not practical. I plan to wait and see. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:22, 24 December 2012 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::On the whole, the problem of Mars colonization is just to large for me to handle in a way to get a decision of practical or not practical. I plan to wait and see. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:22, 24 December 2012 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Hello Farred, This discussion seems to focus on more than one subject. Proposal: Let's continue the nuclear discussion on [[Talk:Nuclear_power]], the Mars One discussion on [[Talk: Mars One]] and the discussion upon the general economic feasibility of autonomous growth here on this page. -- [[User:Rfc|Rfc]] 20:31, 12 January 2013 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key marspediaorg_www-mwmars_:diff::1.12:old-7941:rev-7967 -->
</table>Rfchttp://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Equipment_for_autonomous_growth&diff=7941&oldid=prevFarred: /* Re: Example: Repair of solar panels */ fix typo2012-12-24T18:26:43Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Re: Example: Repair of solar panels: </span> fix typo</span></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 18:26, 24 December 2012</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l123" >Line 123:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 123:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::There has been no answer to the question of the source of claims that nuclear power is more expensive than solar and subsidized. I would like to examine those claims. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::There has been no answer to the question of the source of claims that nuclear power is more expensive than solar and subsidized. I would like to examine those claims. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::There is some logic to getting a colony up to self-sufficiency quickly. Supporting a colony that is dependent would be a continuing expense. The cost of a quickly self-sufficient colony seems daunting to me. Bas Lansdorp claimed that the mission sending men to Mars would cost less than a mission estimate by NASA because Mars One would not return people from Mars. That does not consider the expense of shipping to Mars the greenhouses necessary to grow food on Mars, complete with a partially closed recycling life support system, ice mining equipment, equipment to process the ice to water, atmospheric distillation system, and electrical power supply with power storage for when the sun does not shine. Considering the whole expense of the colony goals it seems that it would cost more than the 450 billion that NASA estimated for <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">is </del>mission. You wrote about prospective colonists "...it will always be cheaper to keep them alive over there than to bring them back to Earth." That is not necessarily the case. People can predict the cost of a continuing expense that mounts year after year. The cost of bringing colonists home from a failed colony might be less than maintaining them on Mars until they die there. In any case a failed attempt would set back human efforts to colonize space many years if not foreclose the option entirely. It seems to me to call for caution. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::There is some logic to getting a colony up to self-sufficiency quickly. Supporting a colony that is dependent would be a continuing expense. The cost of a quickly self-sufficient colony seems daunting to me. Bas Lansdorp claimed that the mission sending men to Mars would cost less than a mission estimate by NASA because Mars One would not return people from Mars. That does not consider the expense of shipping to Mars the greenhouses necessary to grow food on Mars, complete with a partially closed recycling life support system, ice mining equipment, equipment to process the ice to water, atmospheric distillation system, and electrical power supply with power storage for when the sun does not shine. Considering the whole expense of the colony goals it seems that it would cost more than the 450 billion that NASA estimated for <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">its </ins>mission. You wrote about prospective colonists "...it will always be cheaper to keep them alive over there than to bring them back to Earth." That is not necessarily the case. People can predict the cost of a continuing expense that mounts year after year. The cost of bringing colonists home from a failed colony might be less than maintaining them on Mars until they die there. In any case a failed attempt would set back human efforts to colonize space many years if not foreclose the option entirely. It seems to me to call for caution. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::On the whole, the problem of Mars colonization is just to large for me to handle in a way to get a decision of practical or not practical. I plan to wait and see. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:22, 24 December 2012 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::On the whole, the problem of Mars colonization is just to large for me to handle in a way to get a decision of practical or not practical. I plan to wait and see. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:22, 24 December 2012 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key marspediaorg_www-mwmars_:diff::1.12:old-7940:rev-7941 -->
</table>Farredhttp://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Equipment_for_autonomous_growth&diff=7940&oldid=prevFarred: /* Re: Example: Repair of solar panels */ talk2012-12-24T18:22:00Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Re: Example: Repair of solar panels: </span> talk</span></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 18:22, 24 December 2012</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l118" >Line 118:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 118:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::You refer to environmental and economic challenges interfering with colonizing Mars. I take the optimistic and I believe realistic view that though there are serious environmental problems, they will not sufficiently injure the world-wide human economy as to prevent space colonies. There is a prospect for major economic problems resulting in deaths and disturbances. The chief villains seem to be the United States federal government which keeps borrowing money that it will never repay and the various nations that continue to allow the trade of dubious securities for goods. The unstable situation has the potential to collapse like an avalanche without warning. It seems best to me to wait until this problem is resolved one way or another before starting a settlement on Mars or an industrial colony on Luna. I am optimistic. Problems will pass as they have before. People probably have a hundred years yet in which the option to colonize space will still be open. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::You refer to environmental and economic challenges interfering with colonizing Mars. I take the optimistic and I believe realistic view that though there are serious environmental problems, they will not sufficiently injure the world-wide human economy as to prevent space colonies. There is a prospect for major economic problems resulting in deaths and disturbances. The chief villains seem to be the United States federal government which keeps borrowing money that it will never repay and the various nations that continue to allow the trade of dubious securities for goods. The unstable situation has the potential to collapse like an avalanche without warning. It seems best to me to wait until this problem is resolved one way or another before starting a settlement on Mars or an industrial colony on Luna. I am optimistic. Problems will pass as they have before. People probably have a hundred years yet in which the option to colonize space will still be open. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I have never considered myself a candidate for astronaut or colonist. I look on humanity's efforts to colonize space as a parent looks on the efforts of a child to succeed in a career. Luckily humanity can succeed even after I am dead, and if humanity fails irretrievably, it will certainly be after I am dead. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 17:00, 20 December 2012 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I have never considered myself a candidate for astronaut or colonist. I look on humanity's efforts to colonize space as a parent looks on the efforts of a child to succeed in a career. Luckily humanity can succeed even after I am dead, and if humanity fails irretrievably, it will certainly be after I am dead. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 17:00, 20 December 2012 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::The plans needed before colonization starts should not be thought of as perfect and unchangeable. The plans are needed to show that colonization is possible in concept and the details of the plans should be tested as far as possible on Earth before colonization begins. Some details should be tested with demonstrations on Mars such as perhaps a demonstration atmospheric distillation plant. Once a colony is actually operating improvements and necessary changes are likely, so the plans should be somewhat suited to being changed. </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::There has been no answer to the question of the source of claims that nuclear power is more expensive than solar and subsidized. I would like to examine those claims. </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::There is some logic to getting a colony up to self-sufficiency quickly. Supporting a colony that is dependent would be a continuing expense. The cost of a quickly self-sufficient colony seems daunting to me. Bas Lansdorp claimed that the mission sending men to Mars would cost less than a mission estimate by NASA because Mars One would not return people from Mars. That does not consider the expense of shipping to Mars the greenhouses necessary to grow food on Mars, complete with a partially closed recycling life support system, ice mining equipment, equipment to process the ice to water, atmospheric distillation system, and electrical power supply with power storage for when the sun does not shine. Considering the whole expense of the colony goals it seems that it would cost more than the 450 billion that NASA estimated for is mission. You wrote about prospective colonists "...it will always be cheaper to keep them alive over there than to bring them back to Earth." That is not necessarily the case. People can predict the cost of a continuing expense that mounts year after year. The cost of bringing colonists home from a failed colony might be less than maintaining them on Mars until they die there. In any case a failed attempt would set back human efforts to colonize space many years if not foreclose the option entirely. It seems to me to call for caution. </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::On the whole, the problem of Mars colonization is just to large for me to handle in a way to get a decision of practical or not practical. I plan to wait and see. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:22, 24 December 2012 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Farredhttp://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Equipment_for_autonomous_growth&diff=7922&oldid=prevFarred: /* Re: Example: Repair of solar panels */ fix typo2012-12-21T02:55:10Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Re: Example: Repair of solar panels: </span> fix typo</span></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 02:55, 21 December 2012</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l46" >Line 46:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 46:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::My idea of the best sort of power generation from the start of the colony on Mars to a period of steady expansion is in a number of steps. First use solar power and batteries. Next assemble a nuclear reactor with mostly local materials but fuel rods and other critical parts sent from Earth. The nuclear power will serve for periods without sunshine relegating energy storage to emergency use status. It would serve when nuclear power would be off line. Reducing the need for energy storage would make expansion of the electrical power system cheaper, so the colony as a whole could expand faster than otherwise. When the fuel rods reach maximum design burn up, they would be stored as I stated above. Replacement fuel rods would be sent from earth. This is a greater energy density in the mass transported than solar cells. After many years of colony growth and a few sets of fuel rod replacements, Mars would begin to reprocess old fuel rods for new, getting much more energy out of the fuel rods than is possible without reprocessing. The use of nuclear power for times without sunshine could increase as the size of the colony increases. It seems to me that if people put too many restrictions on how industry on Mars can develop, the development might become practically impossible and that time when industry can be devoted to terraforming will never be reached. I can not prove that this is so, but there are certainly difficulties in developing an electrical power system for a vast industry on Mars. There is no oxygen atmosphere in which to burn things like coal, and likely no coal. An ambitious goal of expanding a Mars colony requires some plan for a source of energy. Without such a plan, a Mars colony would be constantly small and dependant upon Earth. Terraforming would never be an option. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::My idea of the best sort of power generation from the start of the colony on Mars to a period of steady expansion is in a number of steps. First use solar power and batteries. Next assemble a nuclear reactor with mostly local materials but fuel rods and other critical parts sent from Earth. The nuclear power will serve for periods without sunshine relegating energy storage to emergency use status. It would serve when nuclear power would be off line. Reducing the need for energy storage would make expansion of the electrical power system cheaper, so the colony as a whole could expand faster than otherwise. When the fuel rods reach maximum design burn up, they would be stored as I stated above. Replacement fuel rods would be sent from earth. This is a greater energy density in the mass transported than solar cells. After many years of colony growth and a few sets of fuel rod replacements, Mars would begin to reprocess old fuel rods for new, getting much more energy out of the fuel rods than is possible without reprocessing. The use of nuclear power for times without sunshine could increase as the size of the colony increases. It seems to me that if people put too many restrictions on how industry on Mars can develop, the development might become practically impossible and that time when industry can be devoted to terraforming will never be reached. I can not prove that this is so, but there are certainly difficulties in developing an electrical power system for a vast industry on Mars. There is no oxygen atmosphere in which to burn things like coal, and likely no coal. An ambitious goal of expanding a Mars colony requires some plan for a source of energy. Without such a plan, a Mars colony would be constantly small and dependant upon Earth. Terraforming would never be an option. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I am in a peculiar position on this wiki as a member of the Moon Society and not the Mars Society I would like to see a Mars colony progressing on a plan which is sufficient that it succeed in the long term but my viewpoint is different <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">is </del>some respects from members of the Mars Society in general. As a guest administrator, I would not want to oppose members of the Mars Society in anything I would put into an article. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:44, 16 November 2012 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I am in a peculiar position on this wiki as a member of the Moon Society and not the Mars Society I would like to see a Mars colony progressing on a plan which is sufficient that it succeed in the long term but my viewpoint is different <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">in </ins>some respects from members of the Mars Society in general. As a guest administrator, I would not want to oppose members of the Mars Society in anything I would put into an article. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:44, 16 November 2012 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::The difficulty with the plan of Mars One is that it lacks any details as to when or how the colony will be self sufficient or expand. It seems to be based upon the assumption that no plan is necessary because the requirements are so simple that we can work out the problems once we have people on Mars. I disagree. I quote myself: "The plan for the self reproducing colony should be in hand when the first colonist sets out from Earth." The economics of a self reproducing colony on Mars is an extremely complex thing to be worked out in advance so that mistakes are not made in establishing industries in an inefficient order or having a Mars colony unnecessarily dependent upon Earth for a significant time. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 08:22, 16 November 2012 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::The difficulty with the plan of Mars One is that it lacks any details as to when or how the colony will be self sufficient or expand. It seems to be based upon the assumption that no plan is necessary because the requirements are so simple that we can work out the problems once we have people on Mars. I disagree. I quote myself: "The plan for the self reproducing colony should be in hand when the first colonist sets out from Earth." The economics of a self reproducing colony on Mars is an extremely complex thing to be worked out in advance so that mistakes are not made in establishing industries in an inefficient order or having a Mars colony unnecessarily dependent upon Earth for a significant time. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 08:22, 16 November 2012 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
</table>Farredhttp://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Equipment_for_autonomous_growth&diff=7920&oldid=prevFarred: /* Re: Example: Repair of solar panels */ talk2012-12-20T17:00:42Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Re: Example: Repair of solar panels: </span> talk</span></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 17:00, 20 December 2012</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l114" >Line 114:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 114:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:*As for "Who shall give the money for it?" concerning a lunar industry, the buyers of electrical power generated in space and beamed to Earth would pay for it. This does not currently work as an investment plan because of the long development time needed before any profits are made. If the plan did work with the current level of technical development, industrial organizations would be establishing industry on the moon now. Future development for motives outside the purely financial are possible. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:*As for "Who shall give the money for it?" concerning a lunar industry, the buyers of electrical power generated in space and beamed to Earth would pay for it. This does not currently work as an investment plan because of the long development time needed before any profits are made. If the plan did work with the current level of technical development, industrial organizations would be establishing industry on the moon now. Future development for motives outside the purely financial are possible. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:*You write: "I never rely on some future technology," and that is good for evaluating the potential for establishing a settlement on Mars with current technology. However, we are not guaranteed that current technology is sufficient. Napoleon looked at digging a tunnel under the English channel, but soon determined that it could not be done quickly enough to help with his war. There were numerous typewriters patented before one became a commercial success. The French started digging a panama canal before completing a plan by which it could be economically done. In all of these cases the plans and technical development necessary for a project were insufficient and the project had to wait until later developments made the project practical. The fact that you insult future technology on you user page by referring to it as "magic" is not a convincing argument that future technical developments will not be necessary for a colony on Mars. People should not be optimistic or pessimistic about plans to colonize Mars but rather realistic. There have been too many projects based more on optimism than pragmatism that have failed and used up <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">peoples </del>willingness to believe that a technologically based project will succeed. There has been X-33, MDX, Roton, and the Space Shuttle to name a few. The worst was the Space Shuttle because it came so close to working that the program just kept on using up tax money for years while program managers pretended that it was an economic space launch system or would become economic soon. I am an old man and have had enough of excessive optimism. It gives space industrialization a bad name. A project takes however long it takes. If there is nothing one can do to make it practical within the next twenty years, one can plan what will be needed in the future and hope or just forget it. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 03:05, 20 December 2012 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:*You write: "I never rely on some future technology," and that is good for evaluating the potential for establishing a settlement on Mars with current technology. However, we are not guaranteed that current technology is sufficient. Napoleon looked at digging a tunnel under the English channel, but soon determined that it could not be done quickly enough to help with his war. There were numerous typewriters patented before one became a commercial success. The French started digging a panama canal before completing a plan by which it could be economically done. In all of these cases the plans and technical development necessary for a project were insufficient and the project had to wait until later developments made the project practical. The fact that you insult future technology on you user page by referring to it as "magic" is not a convincing argument that future technical developments will not be necessary for a colony on Mars. People should not be optimistic or pessimistic about plans to colonize Mars but rather realistic. There have been too many projects based more on optimism than pragmatism that have failed and used up <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">people's </ins>willingness to believe that a technologically based project will succeed. There has been X-33, MDX, Roton, and the Space Shuttle to name a few. The worst was the Space Shuttle because it came so close to working that the program just kept on using up tax money for years while program managers pretended that it was an economic space launch system or would become economic soon. I am an old man and have had enough of excessive optimism. It gives space industrialization a bad name. A project takes however long it takes. If there is nothing one can do to make it practical within the next twenty years, one can plan what will be needed in the future and hope or just forget it. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 03:05<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">, 20 December 2012 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline"> </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">::You refer to environmental and economic challenges interfering with colonizing Mars. I take the optimistic and I believe realistic view that though there are serious environmental problems, they will not sufficiently injure the world-wide human economy as to prevent space colonies. There is a prospect for major economic problems resulting in deaths and disturbances. The chief villains seem to be the United States federal government which keeps borrowing money that it will never repay and the various nations that continue to allow the trade of dubious securities for goods. The unstable situation has the potential to collapse like an avalanche without warning. It seems best to me to wait until this problem is resolved one way or another before starting a settlement on Mars or an industrial colony on Luna. I am optimistic. Problems will pass as they have before. People probably have a hundred years yet in which the option to colonize space will still be open. </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">::I have never considered myself a candidate for astronaut or colonist. I look on humanity's efforts to colonize space as a parent looks on the efforts of a child to succeed in a career. Luckily humanity can succeed even after I am dead, and if humanity fails irretrievably, it will certainly be after I am dead. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 17:00</ins>, 20 December 2012 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
</table>Farredhttp://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Equipment_for_autonomous_growth&diff=7916&oldid=prevFarred: /* Re: Example: Repair of solar panels */ fix typo2012-12-20T03:11:53Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Re: Example: Repair of solar panels: </span> fix typo</span></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 03:11, 20 December 2012</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l110" >Line 110:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 110:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:*You write: "Industry is not something that, once established, remains there and yields a continuous wealth." This is false. The difference between the amount of industry that can be afforded by the average citizen of an industrially developed country today and the average European citizen in the year 1500 AD is a result of the industry there is to produce wealth. Industry includes not only the machines but the educational system that produces workers able to maintain them. For the work of operating and maintaining industrial systems today the average worker produces much more wealth per man-hour than the average worker in 1500 AD. That is the result of established industry yielding continuous wealth. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:*You write: "Industry is not something that, once established, remains there and yields a continuous wealth." This is false. The difference between the amount of industry that can be afforded by the average citizen of an industrially developed country today and the average European citizen in the year 1500 AD is a result of the industry there is to produce wealth. Industry includes not only the machines but the educational system that produces workers able to maintain them. For the work of operating and maintaining industrial systems today the average worker produces much more wealth per man-hour than the average worker in 1500 AD. That is the result of established industry yielding continuous wealth. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:*Wealth includes not only production but also consumption. If there were no one to drive the many automobiles produced, they would be only so many hunks of rusting scrap. An apple tree in your yard produces wealth if you want to eat the apples and bake them into apple cake. If you do not consider the apples worth picking, if they are many more apples than you can use, then they become just a rotten mess on the ground that must be cleaned out of the way. More wealth must be produced in Mars settlement than the minimum required on Earth because more wealth is needed to survive on Mars, so more wealth would be consumed. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:*Wealth includes not only production but also consumption. If there were no one to drive the many automobiles produced, they would be only so many hunks of rusting scrap. An apple tree in your yard produces wealth if you want to eat the apples and bake them into apple cake. If you do not consider the apples worth picking, if they are many more apples than you can use, then they become just a rotten mess on the ground that must be cleaned out of the way. More wealth must be produced in <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">a </ins>Mars settlement than the minimum required on Earth because more wealth is needed to survive on Mars, so more wealth would be consumed. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:*As for "Who shall give the money for it?" concerning a lunar industry, the buyers of electrical power generated in space and beamed to Earth would pay for it. This does not currently work as an investment plan because of the long development time needed before any profits are made. If the plan did work with the current level of technical development, industrial organizations would be establishing industry on the moon now. Future development for motives outside the purely financial are possible. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:*As for "Who shall give the money for it?" concerning a lunar industry, the buyers of electrical power generated in space and beamed to Earth would pay for it. This does not currently work as an investment plan because of the long development time needed before any profits are made. If the plan did work with the current level of technical development, industrial organizations would be establishing industry on the moon now. Future development for motives outside the purely financial are possible. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:*You write: "I never rely on some future technology," and that is good for evaluating the potential for establishing a settlement on Mars with current technology. However, we are not guaranteed that current technology is sufficient. Napoleon looked at digging a tunnel under the English channel, but soon determined that it could not be done quickly enough to help with his war. There were numerous typewriters patented before one became a commercial success. The French started digging a panama canal before completing a plan by which it could be economically done. In all of these cases the plans and technical development necessary for a project were insufficient and the project had to wait until later developments made the project practical. The fact that you insult future technology on you user page by referring to it as "magic" is not a convincing argument that future technical developments will not be necessary for a colony on Mars. People should not be optimistic or pessimistic about plans to colonize Mars but rather realistic. There have been too many projects based more on optimism than pragmatism that have failed and used up peoples willingness to believe that a technologically based project will succeed. There has been X-33, MDX, Roton, and the Space Shuttle to name a few. The worst was the Space Shuttle because it came so close to working that the program just kept on using up tax money for years while program managers pretended that it was an economic space launch system or would become economic soon. I am an old man and have had enough of excessive optimism. It gives space industrialization a bad name. A project takes however long it takes. If there is nothing one can do to make it practical within the next twenty years, one can plan what will be needed in the future and hope or just forget it. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 03:05, 20 December 2012 (UTC)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:*You write: "I never rely on some future technology," and that is good for evaluating the potential for establishing a settlement on Mars with current technology. However, we are not guaranteed that current technology is sufficient. Napoleon looked at digging a tunnel under the English channel, but soon determined that it could not be done quickly enough to help with his war. There were numerous typewriters patented before one became a commercial success. The French started digging a panama canal before completing a plan by which it could be economically done. In all of these cases the plans and technical development necessary for a project were insufficient and the project had to wait until later developments made the project practical. The fact that you insult future technology on you user page by referring to it as "magic" is not a convincing argument that future technical developments will not be necessary for a colony on Mars. People should not be optimistic or pessimistic about plans to colonize Mars but rather realistic. There have been too many projects based more on optimism than pragmatism that have failed and used up peoples willingness to believe that a technologically based project will succeed. There has been X-33, MDX, Roton, and the Space Shuttle to name a few. The worst was the Space Shuttle because it came so close to working that the program just kept on using up tax money for years while program managers pretended that it was an economic space launch system or would become economic soon. I am an old man and have had enough of excessive optimism. It gives space industrialization a bad name. A project takes however long it takes. If there is nothing one can do to make it practical within the next twenty years, one can plan what will be needed in the future and hope or just forget it. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 03:05, 20 December 2012 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
</table>Farred