Luna-Mars Trade - Revision history

Multivac: /* Lunar Needs */

2020-07-25T09:26:58Z

Lunar Needs

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:26, 25 July 2020
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	[[Mars]] could return dividends at the same time that Luna does if they join forces.		[[Mars]] could return dividends at the same time that Luna does if they join forces.
	==Lunar Needs==		==Lunar Needs==
	Luna has considerable potential for manufacturing and shipping goods into [[orbit]] about [[Earth]] where it can be of financial benefit, but Luna is short of [[Hydrogen]], [[Nitrogen]], and [[Carbon]]. These elements are not only necessary for life, they are useful for many industrial processes. Mars has all of these elements in reasonably recoverable concentrations, and could export them to Luna and Earth orbiting factories.		Luna has considerable potential for manufacturing and shipping goods into [[orbit]] about [[Earth]] where it can be of financial benefit, but Luna is short of [[Hydrogen]], [[Nitrogen]], and [[Carbon]] outside of volatiles trapped in Permanently Shaded Regions near the poles<ref>https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lunarvolatiles2018/pdf/5014.pdf</ref>. These elements are not only necessary for life, they are useful for many industrial processes. Mars has all of these elements in reasonably recoverable concentrations, and could export them to Luna and Earth orbiting factories.

	===Mining Phobos===		==Lunar production==
			Various groups<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kprYEOL7Hfs</ref> have discussed the creation of a mining base on the south pole of the moon to mine the volatile ices found there to produce either [[methane\|Methalox]] fuel, or H<sub>2</sub>/O<sub>2</sub> fuel to make interplanetary travel cheaper. Other resources such as [[water]] or [[food]] to supply the colony ships heading to Mars could also be produced there, saving the cost of bringing them up from Earth.

			==Mining Phobos==
	Phobos may be rich in volatiles<ref>Near-Infrared Spectrophotometry of Phobos and Deimos http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2002Icar..156...64R&db_key=AST&data_type=HTML&format=&high=452a3fe65704274</ref>, which are needed by Luna.		Phobos may be rich in volatiles<ref>Near-Infrared Spectrophotometry of Phobos and Deimos http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2002Icar..156...64R&db_key=AST&data_type=HTML&format=&high=452a3fe65704274</ref>, which are needed by Luna.
	Phobos could be ground up and processed at one end and the tailings dumped at the other end. It should be many years before the entire moon is converted into tailings, during that time Luna and Earth orbiting factories should be churning out a great many solar power satellites, orbital habitats, and orbiting space ports to help lift traffic from Earth. If Phobos is 30% by weight volatiles and ships six thousand tons a year that is part ammonium cyanide and part propane, then after fifty years 100 billionths of Phobos will be processed.<ref> Phobos weighs 1*10^16 kg according to the Phobos article at Wikipedia.</ref>		Phobos could be ground up and processed at one end and the tailings dumped at the other end. It should be many years before the entire moon is converted into tailings, during that time Luna and Earth orbiting factories should be churning out a great many solar power satellites, orbital habitats, and orbiting space ports to help lift traffic from Earth. If Phobos is 30% by weight volatiles and ships six thousand tons a year that is part ammonium cyanide and part propane, then after fifty years 100 billionths of Phobos will be processed.<ref> Phobos weighs 1*10^16 kg according to the Phobos article at Wikipedia.</ref>

	==Martian Needs==		==Martian Needs==
	===Manufactured Goods===		===Manufactured Goods===

Jburk at 21:24, 17 December 2018

2018-12-17T21:24:02Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:24, 17 December 2018
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	*[[lunarp:Luna-Mars Trade\|Lunarpedia:Luna-Mars Trade]]		*[[lunarp:Luna-Mars Trade\|Lunarpedia:Luna-Mars Trade]]

	[[~~category~~:Commerce]]		[[Category:Commerce and Economics]]

Farred: addition

2013-10-04T09:19:44Z

addition

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:19, 4 October 2013
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	Initial Martian settlements will have little industrial infrastructure, and will have to import many goods such as [[electronics]] and [[medicine]]. Lunar settlements are in a good position to supply some of these needs, as the energy cost of transport from Luna is much less than from Earth.		Initial Martian settlements will have little industrial infrastructure, and will have to import many goods such as [[electronics]] and [[medicine]]. Lunar settlements are in a good position to supply some of these needs, as the energy cost of transport from Luna is much less than from Earth.
	===Financing===		===Financing===
	Like Lunar settlements, Martian settlements need funding to survive. Sales of Martian resources to Lunar and other interests could be a major source of cash.		Like Lunar settlements, Martian settlements need funding to survive. Sales of Martian resources to Lunar and other interests could be a major source of cash. The ultimate source of the cash is customers on Earth that buy power from space based solar power plant manufactured with materials mined on Luna.
	===Transportation===		===Transportation===
	To get goods from Luna to Mars, those goods could be launched from Luna with mass drivers and transferred from Earth's orbital position to Mars with a VASIMR propulsion system. Each delivery could be packed with a fiber glass composite heat shield and a woven glass fiber parachute. There would be no need to pack the parachute compactly for shipment. It would be woven in space from lunar materials. Some of the [[Space access\|MTLMOS]] flights would be dedicated to launching refueled methane/oxygen retro-rockets for the final landing deceleration. Shipments to Mars would rendezvous at a space station to mate with retro-rockets while the VASIMR transport system would take a shipment to Luna.		To get goods from Luna to Mars, those goods could be launched from Luna with mass drivers and transferred from Earth's orbital position to Mars with a VASIMR propulsion system. Each delivery could be packed with a fiber glass composite heat shield and a woven glass fiber parachute. There would be no need to pack the parachute compactly for shipment. It would be woven in space from lunar materials. Some of the [[Space access\|MTLMOS]] flights would be dedicated to launching refueled methane/oxygen retro-rockets for the final landing deceleration. Shipments to Mars would rendezvous at a space station to mate with retro-rockets while the VASIMR transport system would take a shipment to Luna.

Farred: adding internal link

2009-03-20T14:08:20Z

adding internal link

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:08, 20 March 2009
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	Like Lunar settlements, Martian settlements need funding to survive. Sales of Martian resources to Lunar and other interests could be a major source of cash.		Like Lunar settlements, Martian settlements need funding to survive. Sales of Martian resources to Lunar and other interests could be a major source of cash.
	===Transportation===		===Transportation===
	To get goods from Luna to Mars, those goods could be launched from Luna with mass drivers and transferred from Earth's orbital position to Mars with a VASIMR propulsion system. Each delivery could be packed with a fiber glass composite heat shield and a woven glass fiber parachute. There would be no need to pack the parachute compactly for shipment. It would be woven in space from lunar materials. Some of the MTLMOS flights would be dedicated to launching refueled methane/oxygen retro-rockets for the final landing deceleration. Shipments to Mars would rendezvous at a space station to mate with retro-rockets while the VASIMR transport system would take a shipment to Luna.		To get goods from Luna to Mars, those goods could be launched from Luna with mass drivers and transferred from Earth's orbital position to Mars with a VASIMR propulsion system. Each delivery could be packed with a fiber glass composite heat shield and a woven glass fiber parachute. There would be no need to pack the parachute compactly for shipment. It would be woven in space from lunar materials. Some of the [[Space access\|MTLMOS]] flights would be dedicated to launching refueled methane/oxygen retro-rockets for the final landing deceleration. Shipments to Mars would rendezvous at a space station to mate with retro-rockets while the VASIMR transport system would take a shipment to Luna.

	==Mutual Needs==		==Mutual Needs==

Rfc: moved space access details to space access

2009-02-16T19:20:14Z

moved space access details to space access

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:20, 16 February 2009
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	==Lunar Needs==		==Lunar Needs==
	Luna has considerable potential for manufacturing and shipping goods into [[orbit]] about [[Earth]] where it can be of financial benefit, but Luna is short of [[Hydrogen]], [[Nitrogen]], and [[Carbon]]. These elements are not only necessary for life, they are useful for many industrial processes. Mars has all of these elements in reasonably recoverable concentrations, and could export them to Luna and Earth orbiting factories.		Luna has considerable potential for manufacturing and shipping goods into [[orbit]] about [[Earth]] where it can be of financial benefit, but Luna is short of [[Hydrogen]], [[Nitrogen]], and [[Carbon]]. These elements are not only necessary for life, they are useful for many industrial processes. Mars has all of these elements in reasonably recoverable concentrations, and could export them to Luna and Earth orbiting factories.
	~~===Mars-Luna Transport===~~
	~~====Shuttle====~~
	The cost of lifting items from Mars could become considerably less than the cost of lifting them from Earth. Low Mars orbit, at an altitude of 100 miles, has a velocity of 3440 meters per second, less than half of the velocity needed to orbit Earth at that altitude, more than twice the velocity needed to orbit Luna. With reusable rockets built on Earth to use liquid methane and liquid oxygen, if the exhaust velocity is 3500 meters per second, there should be 36% of the take-off weight in orbit. With wings for a [[supersonic in ground effect]] in the 0.1 psi Martian [[atmosphere]], the empty weight should be held to 30% leaving 6% of the take-off weight as cargo.
	~~====Practicality====~~
	*There seems reason to believe that supersonic in ground effect landing is a significant problem, and that it should yield to the proper effort, resulting in an economic Mars to Low Mars Orbit Shuttle (MTLMOS pronounced metal mos to rhyme with verbose). Donald Campbell was killed on the 4th of January, 1967 when the "Bluebird K7" racing boat flipped over and disintegrated at a speed greater than 300 mph. <ref> Bluebird K7 article at Wikipedia </ref> The problem seems to have been longitudinal instability when high ground effect lifting forces acted on a center of lift that shifted rapidly with changing attitude.
	*This sort of problem is made more difficult by the need to consider the reflection of shock waves in supersonic flight in ground effect. Such problems were handled successfully when the "Thrust SSC" broke the speed of sound on land during a 15th of October 1997 setting of the world's land speed record. <ref> http://www.speedace.info/thrust_ssc </ref>
	*An ordinary wind tunnel by itself is insufficient for testing craft in supersonic ground effect conditions. A moving belt of caterpillar like treads on the bottom of the wind tunnel moving as fast as the gas in the wind tunnel could simulate the runway rushing past during landing. Having a belt of treads that are broad enough and move fast enough for the simulation would be expensive, but not as expensive as doing the testing on Mars. At least with only 0.1 psi of carbon dioxide needed for a simulation, it would not cost as much as otherwise to fill the wind tunnel with cold carbon dioxide.
	*Landing at a speed in the neighborhood of 1000 mph (mach 1.9 on Mars) might seem more difficult than the feat accomplished by "Thrust SSC," but moving through only 150th of the gas pressure (100th of the density) more than compensates for the increased speed. Maintaining lift and orientational stability are the problems for which we have aeronautical engineers, computational aerodynamics, and wind tunnels.

	~~====Space Elevator====~~
	~~A [[space elevator]] is an interesting alternative both for Luna and Mars. Probably, it allows even more cost reduction.~~

	===Mining Phobos===		===Mining Phobos===
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	===Financing===		===Financing===
	Like Lunar settlements, Martian settlements need funding to survive. Sales of Martian resources to Lunar and other interests could be a major source of cash.		Like Lunar settlements, Martian settlements need funding to survive. Sales of Martian resources to Lunar and other interests could be a major source of cash.
	===~~Luna to Mars~~ Transportation===		===Transportation===
	To get goods from Luna to Mars, those goods could be launched from Luna with mass drivers and transferred from Earth's orbital position to Mars with a VASIMR propulsion system. Each delivery could be packed with a fiber glass composite heat shield and a woven glass fiber parachute. There would be no need to pack the parachute compactly for shipment. It would be woven in space from lunar materials. Some of the MTLMOS flights would be dedicated to launching refueled methane/oxygen retro-rockets for the final landing deceleration. Shipments to Mars would rendezvous at a space station to mate with retro-rockets while the VASIMR transport system would take a shipment to Luna.		To get goods from Luna to Mars, those goods could be launched from Luna with mass drivers and transferred from Earth's orbital position to Mars with a VASIMR propulsion system. Each delivery could be packed with a fiber glass composite heat shield and a woven glass fiber parachute. There would be no need to pack the parachute compactly for shipment. It would be woven in space from lunar materials. Some of the MTLMOS flights would be dedicated to launching refueled methane/oxygen retro-rockets for the final landing deceleration. Shipments to Mars would rendezvous at a space station to mate with retro-rockets while the VASIMR transport system would take a shipment to Luna.

Farred: minor addition

2009-01-20T18:34:03Z

minor addition

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:34, 20 January 2009
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	*This sort of problem is made more difficult by the need to consider the reflection of shock waves in supersonic flight in ground effect. Such problems were handled successfully when the "Thrust SSC" broke the speed of sound on land during a 15th of October 1997 setting of the world's land speed record. <ref> http://www.speedace.info/thrust_ssc </ref>		*This sort of problem is made more difficult by the need to consider the reflection of shock waves in supersonic flight in ground effect. Such problems were handled successfully when the "Thrust SSC" broke the speed of sound on land during a 15th of October 1997 setting of the world's land speed record. <ref> http://www.speedace.info/thrust_ssc </ref>
	*An ordinary wind tunnel by itself is insufficient for testing craft in supersonic ground effect conditions. A moving belt of caterpillar like treads on the bottom of the wind tunnel moving as fast as the gas in the wind tunnel could simulate the runway rushing past during landing. Having a belt of treads that are broad enough and move fast enough for the simulation would be expensive, but not as expensive as doing the testing on Mars. At least with only 0.1 psi of carbon dioxide needed for a simulation, it would not cost as much as otherwise to fill the wind tunnel with cold carbon dioxide.		*An ordinary wind tunnel by itself is insufficient for testing craft in supersonic ground effect conditions. A moving belt of caterpillar like treads on the bottom of the wind tunnel moving as fast as the gas in the wind tunnel could simulate the runway rushing past during landing. Having a belt of treads that are broad enough and move fast enough for the simulation would be expensive, but not as expensive as doing the testing on Mars. At least with only 0.1 psi of carbon dioxide needed for a simulation, it would not cost as much as otherwise to fill the wind tunnel with cold carbon dioxide.
	*Landing at a speed in the neighborhood of 1000 mph (mach 1.9) might seem more difficult than the feat accomplished by "Thrust SSC," but moving through only 150th of the gas pressure (100th of the density) more than compensates for the increased speed. Maintaining lift and orientational stability are the problems for which we have aeronautical engineers, computational aerodynamics, and wind tunnels.		*Landing at a speed in the neighborhood of 1000 mph (mach 1.9 on Mars) might seem more difficult than the feat accomplished by "Thrust SSC," but moving through only 150th of the gas pressure (100th of the density) more than compensates for the increased speed. Maintaining lift and orientational stability are the problems for which we have aeronautical engineers, computational aerodynamics, and wind tunnels.

	====Space Elevator====		====Space Elevator====
	A [[space elevator]] is an interesting alternative both for Luna and Mars. Probably, it allows even more cost reduction.		A [[space elevator]] is an interesting alternative both for Luna and Mars. Probably, it allows even more cost reduction.

Farred: eliminating links to nowhere

2009-01-20T18:26:30Z

eliminating links to nowhere

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:26, 20 January 2009
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	Like Lunar settlements, Martian settlements need funding to survive. Sales of Martian resources to Lunar and other interests could be a major source of cash.		Like Lunar settlements, Martian settlements need funding to survive. Sales of Martian resources to Lunar and other interests could be a major source of cash.
	===Luna to Mars Transportation===		===Luna to Mars Transportation===
	To get goods from Luna to Mars, those goods could be launched from Luna with ~~[[Mass Drivers]]~~ and transferred from Earth's orbital position to Mars with a [[VASIMR]] propulsion system. Each delivery could be packed with a fiber glass composite heat shield and a woven glass fiber parachute. There would be no need to pack the parachute compactly for shipment. It would be woven in space from lunar materials. Some of the MTLMOS flights would be dedicated to launching refueled methane/oxygen retro-rockets for the final landing deceleration. Shipments to Mars would rendezvous at a space station to mate with retro-rockets while the VASIMR transport system would take a shipment to Luna.		To get goods from Luna to Mars, those goods could be launched from Luna with mass drivers and transferred from Earth's orbital position to Mars with a VASIMR propulsion system. Each delivery could be packed with a fiber glass composite heat shield and a woven glass fiber parachute. There would be no need to pack the parachute compactly for shipment. It would be woven in space from lunar materials. Some of the MTLMOS flights would be dedicated to launching refueled methane/oxygen retro-rockets for the final landing deceleration. Shipments to Mars would rendezvous at a space station to mate with retro-rockets while the VASIMR transport system would take a shipment to Luna.

	==Mutual Needs==		==Mutual Needs==

Farred: expansion

2009-01-20T18:04:17Z

expansion

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:04, 20 January 2009
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	===Mars-Luna Transport===		===Mars-Luna Transport===
	====Shuttle====		====Shuttle====
	The cost of lifting items from Mars could become considerably less than the cost of lifting them from Earth. Low Mars orbit, at an altitude of 100 miles, has a velocity of 3440 meters per second, less than half of the velocity needed to orbit Earth at that altitude, more than twice the velocity needed to orbit Luna. With reusable rockets built on Earth to use liquid methane and liquid oxygen, if the exhaust velocity is 3500 meters per second, there should be 36% of the take-off weight in orbit. With wings for a [[supersonic in ground effect]] in the 0.1 psi Martian [[atmosphere]], the empty weight should be held to 30% leaving 6% of the take-off weight as cargo~~. If the technology for the supersonic in ground effect landing is not ready soon enough, there is always the possibility of mining [[Phobos]]~~.		The cost of lifting items from Mars could become considerably less than the cost of lifting them from Earth. Low Mars orbit, at an altitude of 100 miles, has a velocity of 3440 meters per second, less than half of the velocity needed to orbit Earth at that altitude, more than twice the velocity needed to orbit Luna. With reusable rockets built on Earth to use liquid methane and liquid oxygen, if the exhaust velocity is 3500 meters per second, there should be 36% of the take-off weight in orbit. With wings for a [[supersonic in ground effect]] in the 0.1 psi Martian [[atmosphere]], the empty weight should be held to 30% leaving 6% of the take-off weight as cargo.
	====Practicality====		====Practicality====
	*There seems reason to believe that supersonic in ground effect landing is a significant problem, and that it should yield to the proper effort, resulting in an economic Mars to Low Mars Orbit Shuttle (MTLMOS pronounced metal mos to rhyme with verbose). Donald Campbell was killed on the 4th of January, 1967 when the "Bluebird K7" racing boat flipped over and disintegrated at a speed greater than 300 mph. <ref> Bluebird K7 article at Wikipedia </ref> The problem seems to have been longitudinal instability when high ground effect lifting forces acted on a center of lift that shifted rapidly with changing attitude.		*There seems reason to believe that supersonic in ground effect landing is a significant problem, and that it should yield to the proper effort, resulting in an economic Mars to Low Mars Orbit Shuttle (MTLMOS pronounced metal mos to rhyme with verbose). Donald Campbell was killed on the 4th of January, 1967 when the "Bluebird K7" racing boat flipped over and disintegrated at a speed greater than 300 mph. <ref> Bluebird K7 article at Wikipedia </ref> The problem seems to have been longitudinal instability when high ground effect lifting forces acted on a center of lift that shifted rapidly with changing attitude.
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	==Martian Needs==		==Martian Needs==
	===Manufactured Goods===		===Manufactured Goods===
	Initial Martian settlements will have little industrial infrastructure, and will have to import many goods such as [[electronics]] and [[medicine]]. Lunar settlements are in a good position to supply these needs, as the energy cost of transport from Luna is much less than from Earth.		Initial Martian settlements will have little industrial infrastructure, and will have to import many goods such as [[electronics]] and [[medicine]]. Lunar settlements are in a good position to supply some of these needs, as the energy cost of transport from Luna is much less than from Earth.
	===Financing===		===Financing===
	Like Lunar settlements, Martian settlements need funding to survive. Sales of Martian resources to Lunar and other interests could be a major source of cash.		Like Lunar settlements, Martian settlements need funding to survive. Sales of Martian resources to Lunar and other interests could be a major source of cash.
	===Luna to Mars Transportation===		===Luna to Mars Transportation===
	~~{{expandsec}}~~		To get goods from Luna to Mars, those goods could be launched from Luna with [[Mass Drivers]] and transferred from Earth's orbital position to Mars with a [[VASIMR]] propulsion system. Each delivery could be packed with a fiber glass composite heat shield and a woven glass fiber parachute. There would be no need to pack the parachute compactly for shipment. It would be woven in space from lunar materials. Some of the MTLMOS flights would be dedicated to launching refueled methane/oxygen retro-rockets for the final landing deceleration. Shipments to Mars would rendezvous at a space station to mate with retro-rockets while the VASIMR transport system would take a shipment to Luna.

	==Mutual Needs==		==Mutual Needs==
	Settlements on Mars and Luna share many needs and opportunities.		Settlements on Mars and Luna share many needs and opportunities.

Farred: organization and expansion

2009-01-20T17:43:46Z

organization and expansion

@@ Line 2: / Line 2: @@
 ==Lunar Needs==
 Luna has considerable potential for manufacturing and shipping goods into [[orbit]] about [[Earth]] where it can be of financial benefit, but Luna is short of [[Hydrogen]], [[Nitrogen]], and [[Carbon]].  These elements are not only necessary for life, they are useful for many industrial processes.  Mars has all of these elements in reasonably recoverable concentrations, and could export them to Luna and Earth orbiting factories.
 ===Mining Phobos===
@@ Line 20: / Line 30: @@
 Small vessels with cryopreserved germ or eggs can be exchanged in order to enhance the genetic diversity in the [[population]]. Also, special breedings for [[plants]] and [[animals]] with an adaptation to low gravity or with [[radiation]] tolerance can be exchanged.
 ==references==

Rfc: /* See also */

2009-01-12T19:59:17Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:59, 12 January 2009
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	<references/>		<references/>

			==See also==
			*[[lunarp:Luna-Mars Trade\|Lunarpedia:Luna-Mars Trade]]

	[[category:Commerce]]		[[category:Commerce]]