Talk:Hi-tech versus lo-tech

Solar panels are placed in the high-tech category, and wind turbines are placed in the low-tech catagory. However, imagine having to maintain wind turbines on Mars? They will get clogged up with dust, abrasion will be a problem, etc. And, genetically engineered plants for use in greenhouses would be brought from Earth beforehand, unless greenpeace stops them. T.Neo 10:12, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi T.Neo, the difference between high-tech and lo-tech becomes clearer when you look at the tools and machinery for production and maintenance. To produce solar panels you need a complicated machinery including high-temperature doping ovens with rare minerals and a set of high-sophisticated electronic gadgets. This is what I refer to as high-tech, because we might not be able to reproduce such gadgets. On the other hand you can produce a wind turbine simply by hand-made parts of ordinary materials, with no complicated machinery required. This is what I refer to as lo-tech. Sure, wind turbines have some shortcomings, as you say. There is always a price to pay. After all the question is: How can we survive on Mars, with solar panels or with wind turbines. Your mentioning of the shortcomings of wind turbines is very helpful to find the answer, and that's why I thank you for the discussion. Please add the shortcomings to the wind turbine article.

The main issue here is not so much solar vs. wind, rather that it is electrical parts themselves that are "high-tech" in terms of difficulty in manufacturing from Mars native materials and the specialized skills needed to both manufacture and maintain them. Traditional parts, with their elaborate coils and made out of a variety of fine purified materials, as well as silicon-based parts both require very elaborate industrial infrastructures that won't exist for a very long time on Mars. I'm afraid it is electricity generally that will have to go in the "high-tech" category. Thermal power using crude native engines will be far cheaper than electricity. Steams engines, for example, will be much easier to make from native materials than electrical engines. Frontiersman 23:30, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Compared with legacy vegetables the new developed genetically engineered plants may not be stable in the long run. Genetic alteration will be necessary after a while, maybe unexpectedly. I would use them only if I have the ability to do corrections. Same with computer software. If a software bug shows up in a vital system (e.g. Y2K), I would want someone who can fix it. DNA is a kind of software.

-- Rfc 15:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

We don't have the ability to edit the DNA "software". Genetic modification is either done by selective breeding or importing genetic material from other organisms. Selective breeding takes effect only in the long term. Any genetically modified crops brought to Mars will have been modified previously on Earth. Thing is, GM crops are an attractive possibility, to bump up production, survive in harsh conditions, etc. T.Neo 14:23, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

The GM crops may not be stable in the long run. Too little is known about the interaction of the species in a biosphere. I think the ongoing natural evolution catches up with any artificial genetic modification after a while, reducing the benefit of GM crops. Even short term effects are possible, e.g. side effect in combination with drifting population of microbes. Under Martian conditions the effect is even less predictable.

What we know is that legacy vegetable is stable in a terrestrial environment. What we do not know is how stable legacy vegetable is in a Martian environment. What we do not know is how stable GM crops is in a terrestrial environment. The two things combined means: We do not know for a higher degree how stable GM crops is in a Martian environment.

In my opinion, reliable GM crops specialized for a Martian colony are not within our reach. Therefore, I think the usage of GM crops on Mars is too dangerous if the Martian settlers do not have the industry behind it under their own control.

-- Rfc 12:19, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I see your point, I dont think it would be very easy to maintain a genetic laboratory on Mars. T.Neo 13:37, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

New Category

We need a new category, as we can go lower-tech than the "low-tech" category. I'm referring to the technology of a self-sufficient frontier village: brick-making, small-scale smelting, blacksmithing, glass-blowing, etc. These have a great advantage in not requiring our massive and highly specialized industrial infrastructure to be hauled from earth (basically an impossible task). Frontiersman 22:33, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

That's true. I find the idea promising. How about category:small-scale-tech? -- Rfc 18:42, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I have no objection to another category of low tech industry for a Mars colony, but I do not think electricity takes much more complicated technology than a steam engine. If colonists can make a steam engine they can hook it to an electric generator. The generators themeselves could have parts based upon compicated technology, but it is not necessary. Educational electric generator kits for elementary school children are commercially available. If colonists can produce iron and copper, they can produce electricity.

People will need both complex and simple technologies. It would be nice to have a new world with fertile soil and breathable air, but Mars is not that. On Mars people will get air and fertile soil only by manufacturing them. Recycling will be artificial rather than by action of a natural biosphere. The large amount of work per person will require considerable automated production. The proper route to independence for Mars is through interdependence. By being a part of an economy that includes Earth, Mars will be able to grow extensive industry. Once established, this industry will be available to be diverted to independent survival in case Earth is made temporarily uninhabitable by a massive comet collision or some other catastrophe. As for bringing complex technology to Mars, it is not impossible just as bringing a potato plant to Europe was not impossible in the sixteenth century. People can not yet package the seed for their industrial economy quite a compactly as God packaged the very complex workings of the potato and other living things into seeds, but people are working on it. Like the plans for massive solar power plants to be built out of lunar materials, plans can be developed for massive colonization ships moving in repeated transfers between Earth and Mars without stopping. Only the cargo and passengers start and stop. Sending a complete industrial economy to Mars is certainly possible. It just takes a long time for the industry to develop from a seed on Luna to make it possible. A man can only wait few years for plans to develop to his benefit, but humanity can wait fifty years handily, and I think it must wait. I see no fast plans that will result in a colony.--Farred 23:39, 10 February 2010 (UTC)